The Economy: An appeal to reason

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  • Short Link: tiny.cc/gfgold


    Hello all,

    I'm writing this thread in an attempt to bring some sense of urgency and awareness to the state of Grand Fantasia's economy.


    As I'm sure you've all noticed, recently, the price for a lot of items in the game has drastically increased.


    Where not so long ago you may have been paying 800 gold for something like 'Magic Alchemy Clay', the price of this item has now increased to 1,400 gold.


    This thread will be looking into the reasons why.


    If you don't want to read the rest of the thread, I have included a helpful video to sum up the issue in just under 5 minutes:



    For those who are willing to read the thread and get a little more information, please continue.


    In an attempt to get to the bottom of this issue, I began to gather data so that a graph could be produced, and we'd be able to gain a much clearer picture.


    I decided to reference the gold value of $20 Aeria Point Cards when they were still allowed to be traded.

    Aeria Point cards were a prime candidate for comparison, as they have a constant supply and their value barely changes.

    I chose the $20 variation of AP Cards because they appeared to be the most popular, and therefore are the easiest to find data for.


    I scraped the old forums for trade threads using the 'Wayback Machine', an online tool that allows you to see the contents of cached websites.


    I also pulled information from the #trade_sanctum section of the Grand Fantasia Discord.

    I managed to find information as far back as the end of 2011.


    I plotted this all down into a line graph, and interpolated it with the help of the player Adamont.


    Interpolation means that where there are gaps of data in the dates on the graph, the increase and decrease of gold has been estimated in relation to how much it changed in the next data point.

    This helps give a much more reliable overview on how gold has changed throughout the years.


    Here is the graph:


    40ui0LQ.png

    Google Sheets of the graph: https://docs.google.com/spread…7W6XuGZI/edit?usp=sharing


    The sources for all of the information can be found here:

    https://0bin.net/paste/2FjsLSw…kU9b4FKCL-dFiUrxfs70CfzU5


    From the years 2011 to some time in 2015, the value of gold remains mostly stable.

    However, as you can see, there are two particular points on the graph where gold begins to inflate and its value decreases.

    The first of these points is around the 8th of March 2015.


    At this point into my research, I had downloaded the entirety of the Grand Fantasia news post archive, so I could search for information.


    Looking at news around this date, I determined that it was at this time that the Mission Order Limitation was removed from the game.

    You can find this news post here:


    http://grandfantasia.aeriagame…server-merges-patch-notes


    The second point of inflation is around the 9th of November 2016.

    In my many searches into the news archive, I could not find any mention of Final Destination being removed at all - so I decided to take a look at the old forum posts around this time using the wayback machine.


    I found this page of General Discussion for the 2nd of December 2016:


    https://web.archive.org/web/20…forums/en/index.php?f=948


    On this page I found two recently published (At the time) forum threads talking about the removal of Final Destination.

    QMq9XV4.png

    CBp2zKg.png


    The last post in the first thread is on the 22nd of November 2016, while the last post on the second thread is on the 27th.

    What this suggests is that Final Destination was removed sometime close to, but before the 22nd of November 2016.


    So I dig back into my news posts and look for the closest patch around that time.

    Bingo:

    https://grandfantasia.aeriagam…tum-patch-notes-11-9-2016


    The 9th of November 2016.


    Lining up perfectly with the gold inflation shown on the graph.



    Okay so at this point it should be fairly clear what the cause of this inflation is, the next question is 'why?'


    So to understand that we're going to need to talk about Gold Generation.

    Gold Generation is the process of bringing gold into the game from nowhere.

    This does not include gold that is traded among the players, as this gold has already been generated.


    In Grand Fantasia there are three primary ways to generate gold:


    • Quests
    • Killing Monsters
    • Selling Items.


    So of course I did the only thing I could...

    I took apart the client, and made a Google Sheets doc showing the payout of every single REP (Repeatable) quest in the game, as well as the price of selling every item in the game to an NPC.

    You can find this sheet here:


    https://docs.google.com/spread…h51TvloBxkQy4k/edit#gid=0


    Mission Orders have been highlighted in green.


    What I discovered, was that Mission Order quests pay out roughly 94% more than any other quest at their respective level.

    They also pay out more than any normal Level 100 REP quest at level 50.

    The highest paying Mission Order is 250 gold per run, while one of the most commongly run Mission Orders (Phoenix Tower at level 70) pays out 135 gold.


    If you're familiar with the game, looking at the Sell Prices tab, you can see that the sell price of any item that is above 1 gold is not very easy to farm - making this source of generation unreliable.


    I was not able to find data on the pay out of monsters in the game, however if you compare a regular Level 100 repeatable quest such as 'L98. Take out the Traitors (REP)', this quest pays out 15 gold and 50 silver.


    The requirements for this quest are as follows:



    Hunt 35 x Lv. 98 Baptized Investigation Member

    Hunt 35 x Lv. 98 Brainwashed Investigation Member


    Source: https://grandfantasia.info/mis…e-out-the-Traitors-(REP)/


    Essentially to kill 70 monsters.


    So to make sure I had a good comparison, I decided to test how much a mob from the end game dungeon 'Distorted Dimension' pays out, which I have recorded here:



    As you can see from the video , 1 standard monster drops 16 silver and 81 copper.


    Even if I were to kill 70 of these monsters, I would still only be given 11 Gold 58 Silver 70 Copper, which not close to the 15 gold and 50 silver that the REP Quest gives.


    This shows us that quests are the best form of gold generation overall.

    Ontop of this as mentioned previously, Mission Orders pay out roughly 94% more than an average quest at the same level.

    So it is fairly clear where all this gold is coming from.


    So why is all this gold causing the graph to rise?


    Well, that is because Grand Fantasia's gold sinks are not sufficient enough to keep up with this huge supply of new gold.


    A gold sink is the opposite of generating gold.

    Gold sinks take gold out of the game entirely and remove it from the server.


    Some examples of gold sinks are:


    • Buying from an NPC
    • Teleporting to a map
    • Auction House sales tax when selling an item
    • The cost of fortifying equipment


    All of these methods remove gold from the game.

    However, as any experienced player can tell you - the gold these sinks remove are not in any way comparable to the gold that is given to players for completing a Mission Order quest.


    Teleporting to one of the highest level maps in the game 'Alternate Kaslow Plains' costs only 33 gold

    hrZ2I4Z.png


    One of the most expensive items available from an NPC is the 'Extreme Specialized Reset Stone I'


    GibTr7j.png

    https://grandfantasia.info/ite…ialization-Reset-Stone-I/


    This item resets an extreme specialization skill that is below level 91.


    How often do you reset your extreme specialization skills?

    Probably not very often, but let's make a comparison anyway:


    That is 112 Mission Orders at Level 70 in Phoenix Tower.


    The sales tax for selling an item in the auction house at maximum gold (99,999) is 4999 gold, 95 silver and 24 copper.


    For comparison, this works out at 37.03 Phoenix Tower Mission Order runs.


    Now these may seem like a fair amount of Mission Order runs on an individual level, but on a global scale when you add up all of the times Mission Orders are being completed on the server, it is not very much at all, and this is comparing it to a level 70 Mission order.


    Gold Sinks are the only way gold is removed from the game, and the only way to keep the amount of gold coming in at a similar level to the gold going out - keeping the value of gold and the price of items at a balanced level.


    These are the best gold sinks in Grand Fantasia, and they are not capable of keeping up with the amount of gold that is being generated since the removal of Mission Order Limits and Final Destination.


    Why is lack of Final Destination a problem?


    The removal of Final Destination as a requirement meant that players no longer had to enter the last boss room of a dungeon to complete the quest.

    Some players took this opportunity sit at the entrance of a dungeon while another player farmed the dungeon on their behalf.


    Many take this a step further, by creating up to 5 alternative characters

    and complete the dungeon for all 5 of them, while only putting in the work required for one.


    You can see a video of this here:



    This meant that not only could players now generate an unlimited of gold at a rate 94% higher than any other method in the game, but they could also generate it 5 times in one go.


    The game does not remove gold at anywhere near this speed, so gold has filled the server, and the prices of every day items are continuing to increase.


    This game needs Mission Order Limitations and Final Destination to even begin on its path to economic recovery.


    In addition, further gold sinks need to be added or improved upon in an attempt to drain the excess gold that has been added to the server during this 3 year period.


    For some time now, I've been presenting my findings to the CMs and other Grand Fantasia staff.


    However, it's quickly become apparent that it's very unlikely that anything is going to be done about it.


    It is of my understanding that the primary reason for this is that it may upset some of the playerbase as not everybody understand the reasons why; so I am turning to you, the players, in hopes that you will show them that they are wrong, and you DO want the economy fixed.


    The economy is the most important part of any MMO.

    • It is the reason players farm items.
    • It is the reason players trade items with one another.
    • It is the reason players are rewarded for their hard work.


    Without these problems being fixed,


    • Players will need to work harder (run more dungeon runs) for the same value reward, as the pay out from dungeons does not change with the value of gold.
    • You may take an extended break from the game and find that your gold is worth a lot less than before you left.
    • Item will continue to increase in price.


    It is important to note that while Mission Orders could potentially capped off at any level, the more times you allow people to run them, the higher you need to make the gold sinks take away even more money, costing players even more gold.


    If this continues, it's highly likely that players will eventually leave and the game will slowly die out.


    This has actually happened briefly before, around the period of 2011-2012.

    I did some investigating and discovered that on August 23rd 2011, the MO cap was set to 20.


    https://grandfantasia.aeriagam…news/32307/expansion-pack


    You can see this on the graph, with a small spike around this time.

    The server suffered from severe inflation at that time in comparison to what it was used to before.

    this resulted in many frustrated threads like these:


    https://web.archive.org/web/20…n/viewtopic.php?t=1458567

    https://web.archive.org/web/20…n/viewtopic.php?t=1417337

    https://web.archive.org/web/20…forums/en/index.php?f=948

    ZFC6Qwu.png


    So, following this, in a patch on February 8th 2012, the MO cap was set back to 5

    Final Destination was then implemented on September 23rd 2013 because gold was becoming a problem again (according to a news post at that time, which I believe was by GM Tora)

    You can see this here:

    https://grandfantasia.aeriagam…23-2013-auction-house-fix


    This promptly fixed the issue altogether, as the graph will show you.

    In comparison to the inflation we face now, this was a minor influx of gold - and this caused an outcry.


    So in a sense, I'm trying to cause that same outcry now in a hope to see some change, but this time with a little more data to reference.


    If any positive can be made to this game while I am a GS, I hope that it can be this one.


    Please discuss below.

    If you want your voice to be heard, say something.


    Pray for Grand Fantasia

    1 Like = 1 Prayer 🙏🙏🙏

  • Honestly I'm all for a reintroduction of MO Cap and Final Destination. There really is no disputing the raw data and while I'm totally sure it will cause an uproar among the many players who are too lazy to even watch your summarizing video, this backlash will in the long run be acceptable. Some players might stop the game for a while, a few will stop forever and others will be mad but give it a couple of weeks to a month and everyone will have settled down and accept the new rules.


    Always remember: Just because the negative players shout the loudest does NOT mean that they represent the average player.

  • Well written thread, it's the same concept as printing money. Countries don't randomly print money because it'll cause inflation all round and it's what we're witnessing with the current concept of no MO cap, people are just generating gold with no real value.

  • I don't do dungeon runs, I can't i lag too much. It's the same with duel logging I've never been lucky enough for it to work successfully, so nowadays i sell mclay to fund myself and cheaper than average price. However back when I did do dungeons, it was incredibly hard to get what I needed, because of the limits and the price people were selling at, it's why a lot of people left the game, it took ages to get the money you needed especially for certain classes and if you weren't geared well enough.

    A lot of people left when final destination was put in because getting a party was hard if you weren't geared well, but you needed money to be geared well, which was hard to get if you didn't do dungeons, it was a vicious circle. Limitations were just as bad because getting the money you needed was hard.


    I agree something needs to be done but those ideas are not going to work.

  • A well-thought-out and organized research. I recommend everyone watches the video as it perfectly summarizes the whole situation in 5 minutes.


    I have a few suggestions for effective gold sinks. I'm not sure why they stopped being used often, but the current economy needs them to be as frequent as BOGO clays or special tiered spenders:


    1. The Underground Gold Shop:

    Many older players probably remember this; it was pretty much a unique/limited item mall that sold items not normally obtainable in the game, but all those items in there were purchasable with gold.

    "Have gold to burn? Looking for that special something that can’t be bought in the shops of Saphael?

    The Underground Gold Shop is now open, with a random, rotating stock of rare and wonderful items for the discerning buyer… for the right price."


    https://grandfantasia.aeriagam…521/underground-gold-shop


    Highly recommended to put items actually worth buying; items that are comparable to what is obtained from m-alch tables or tiered spenders. Maybe even GM wishes.

    2. Gold Lotteries:

    I remember these being more frequent when the economy was much more stable. These lotteries are incredible gold sinks and also work in favor of players who do not use AP and only get their items through MO farming.

    https://grandfantasia.aeriagam…hael-gold-lottery-is-back



    To reiterate, these gold sinks must be used frequently for them to have any chance of being effective. Having them once every half a year will not work. The economy needs to be deflated regularly; especially if we assume MO limits won't ever be removed.

  • Hi i'm in one of those videos!!! 5 seconds of fame aside, I think nad brought up some great ideas in bringing back some old gold sinks. I personally would LOVE to see a return of the underground gold shop, it was a phenomenal way to get some items at semi-reasonable prices (Expensive, but that's the point isnt it?) aside from purely being able to purchase them from other players.



    like i mean just look at 1naC2z6.png

    i'd love to buy some TW rings, and I know many people (myself included) who would pay FAR more than 15k for one, two, three, maybe even 10 :D

  • May I point out something, I may not be an experienced player for do some chart economy thing, but I think if we player only can open 1 client might have supressed people that has capability to open multilogging character at once.


    Just my suggestion to balance the gold economy.. <3


    Pls don't hate me


    dietis

    Regards,

  • To help the economy, also new players is to bring mfi's and skb's to daily rewards. Decrease prices in item mall and decrease the amount of money for tiered spender. I hope someone can give me any sort of feedback about my suggestion.


    Edit: I mean just add mfi2 and 3s and skb3s to daily rewards.

  • My reasoning for wanting to see a gold sink, may sound a little selfish, but I want to see the game played as it is supposed to. I want to re-experience the excitement when clearing a difficult dungeon or completing a task with hard work and dedication and being able to dungeons as a team again. I feel to much gold has been generated into the game and something needs to be done, in the hopes of finding a fair balance for all players. Some of my suggestions would be taxing of public Vilefiend Spire, return of the underground gold market( come on you know ya love it!!!), access to a larger variety of items in our general stores, better and improved oclay tables.

  • So...we're looking to stabilise gold being generated and how much is taken out, gold sinks. Ya?


    We could bring back MO limits and Final Destinations. But readjust the MO gold rewards, maybe. So, players are limited to X amount of Mission Orders, but pay out considerably. (Skills can cost a bit at times).

    Add more necessities to NPCs...but not to an extent where we see MFIs in General Stores!


    Implement Entry Fees to VFS, considering the kind of items that could be obtained from there. The higher the floor, the higher the price you'll have to pay to enter. We could do tiers of those floors i.e. F1-5 same cost, F6-10, F11-15, F16-19, and F20 etc. Floor 20 drops BPs like PEN & MPEN BP so yeah this probably will, or should, cost the most.

  • Good job, Dark and Adam. It's been painful watching you guys work on this because wowwie, it was a lot of stuff to go through. ♥ #makegfgoldworthsomethingagain.


    Now for some of my thoughts and some stuff I've seen come up while discord lurking.


    • +1 for FD and MO limit please. This gold in the game comes from SOMEWHERE. We need to fix that before trying to change some things or we'll be back to where we started.


    • Bringing the Underground Gold Shop back would be a great sink. There's so many types of items you could put in the shop. A few examples being: 10 pt archive items, MFIs, SKBs, 95/100 TW rings, older costumes from when the game was released, GM titles, Advanced stone formulas or maybe even Intermediate/Advanced stones themselves.


    Heck. I'll be bold and suggest this but, 90 taro set pieces. Not an entire set, goodness no. But a piece every few months, priced fairly of course. I've seen pieces sit around 50k each and some pieces even reaching 150k if the person needs that specific piece but no one has it.


    It'd be very important that everything in the Underground Gold Shop is priced carefully and fairly, and that prices would change with the state of the economy/value of gold. Yeah, this requires some managing but you could fix the prices as you change the items.


    • Gold raffles please. Make them really worth spending the gold on tickets. Release a costume exclusively through the raffle if you have to. An exclusive costume is motivation to dump gold on tickets, people wanna look "uwu so unique and kawaii" on this game. Use this to your advantage. Maybe throw in the ability to rename a npc as a raffle prize? I'd buy tickets to be able to do that.


    • A NPC that sells (or a way to purchase them with gold) the old event boxes using gold. The ones with 10pt costumes AND consumables in them. Price them reasonably and people will buy them. Have you SEEN Taiwan's archive buff? Good luck; you better start somewhere.


    • I'd love to buy NT mallets, chisels, portals and other consumable things from somewhere. Maybe set a limit per character so this isn't abused too much.


    • Revamp the item mall. Revamp the tiers. Make better tables. LISTEN TO YOUR PLAYERS, AERIA. We're the ones providing your paycheck. You could at least try to make us happier. MFI9s? Never heard of them. Why do they cost 120k and even then, we can't find them?


    Also, you're probably tired of hearing this but; update the archive. Tier costumes that just sit in my bank don't motivate me to spend AP.


    Ok, bye. uwu



  • bring the gold sinks pls


    I agree with all the liked messages above on these points:

    • archive update
    • IM reformation
    • tier reformation
    • MO limits
    • more tax on portals, AH, alchemy
    • underground gold shop

    though the popular opinion here is to agree with what Dark has said, the unpopular opinion comes from the newer players. They are already poor and cant afford anything by themselves without asking/begging for gold. Before these players come in and complain that the taxing, MO limits, FD implementation and etc are going harming them, please think about it in the long run. As it was said before, having unlimited access to gold does get new players (or players who don't spend AP at all on the game; like myself) to catch up to older players who spend on the game, it harms the economy more and brings prices even higher in the end.

    I think I can say this for all but we are officially in the Grand Fantasia Economic Crisis 2k18
    lets hope we overcome this gold crisis
    (like the lag of 2k16, or w/e year it was)

  • I've been a player of Grand Fantasia for longer than I would have liked to, having discovered it in High School and continuing to play it through till now through to my third job. In short it's been a huge part of my life, especially the forums prior to it moving here where I was known as evilishan/walmazi.


    Firstly a huge thanks to Dark for this thread. Having been a forum fanatic once, I can't imagine how much time he would have put into getting all the detail he's put into making it. The video is also done very well, an easy watch that gets to the point and makes a strong case.


    I'm on board with the suggestions mentioned in this thread and to summarise:

    • We need Mission Orders and Final Destination back within this game. Just adding Mission Orders will not do anything for inflation as even proved by my own video here:
      . I was one of the players that was able to make myself strong through spamming dungeons. Even back in 2015 I was able to complete the dungeon without any star mount/archive buff/prefixed costume with alts getting to FD fairly easily also.


    • We've actually been here before; anyone remember Gaia? The inflation due to players botting quest items drove the cost of Mclays to 1200 and it remained above 1000+ all the way through till the merge with Bodor. A player by the name of Ajani had made an identical thread at that point outlining why letting items inflate was such a bad idea for Grand Fantasia.


    • I've mentioned this to death but Greater Repair mallets are an essential item for players of this game and they're the only one that is very dependant on the Mclay economy. It would make a good candidate for UGC. To prevent abuse of this it would be preferable if these were NT.


    • No MMO ever released after Grand Fantasia has the ability to go unlimited gold dungeons. Aura Kingdom is an example of a game where the English speaking population is the largest demographic, no one is even considering making dungeons unlimited. Although our ES/PT populations are decent, our EN population rivals that of TS (aka bad).

    Criticisms:


    • Correlation is not entirely causation in the case of inflation; mclays which are a better indication of player purchasing power (as free players are entirely separated from the AP card economy) and these have seen stability. Likely real time cause of inflation in prices is the decrease in player population within the EN region between 2015 and 2018. Mclay prices have fluctuated between 300g-650g prior to thier drastic increase over the last year and 1/2. As population has decreased the price of mclays is due to rise as there are fewer people purchasing them online (population has dropped by 70% since that time period).

    Despite what I've mentioned above, Dark's plan of action is the best course of action for the game. I wish we could turn back and have this implemented prior to the release of Siwa. Let us hope it is reflected and acted upon.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Lemon: Typo within the second paragraph, had lost my train of thought. ().

  • My first post in the "new" forums


    I completelly agree with putting in the mo limit to lower the gold being brought into game

    I don't like final destination as even when running dungeons i would miss it, but it would stop a lot of the bots being able to leech dungeons.

    From what i have seen gold selling is doing really well at the moment and it would be nice to see these bots shut down.


    Also in the past AG has managed the economy running events like the GM auctions, though i know we are probably beyond something like that helping i think the economy could be brought back with the help of a few gold syncs.


    I would suggest an NPC that can reroll the stats of yellow costumes for 25k gold

    I agree with the NPC to buy TW rings posted here by someone else (maybe for more than 15k gold though)

    An item ingame that can remove resonance stones without destroying them for 25k (This would lower the price of special runes and remove gold from the game...2 birds)

    Gold shop, where you advetise things for sale on the website and people buy via mailing gold and request to a GS (GSDark ofc)


    Theres many things AG can do to recover the economy not just mess with FD though that would be a huge help.


    Also, please do not stop multi clienting there are many of us that have a buff slave that this would not be fair to :)

  • Stopping multi client is not in discussion right now don't worryxD

  • Seeing as we were pinged for this, I'm inclined to agree about the points made heavily clear on this thread that some things has to change.


    Another point to push forward with initiating MO Limits and Final Destination would be to encourage players to form a more cooperative game play which would liven up the game even more so considerably. A few years back (2014 - 2015?) when it was implemented, It's a normal thing to witness people forming parties looking for other people to do dungeons with because it had a limit and meant something back then. It made people interact with other people instead of just soloing every dungeon. It also meant newer players could interact with veteran players and formed bonds of friendship and taught them how to do things.


    Every reset, people would be clamoring to find parties and that definitely felt more like an active community to me, people then were competing to do dungeons daily for ranking purposes.


    Another thing to point out would be to possibly have better monthly ranking rewards, I feel like this reward system has been sorely overlooked over the years of this game and it shouldn't have to. I mean, people sure did compete before to get the crown archive for things like that, imagine how much more competition there would be if they could get something actually worthwhile from it.

  • First of all i think all of us have to say thank you to Dark and Adamont since i dont wanna imagine how much time they spent to find this information, put down it in a simple english accessible to everyone and, moreover, make a video for the lazy player that dont wanna read (that's is also a good video since that's is not only someone that talk but there are a lot of work as videomaker to make the video more interesting and keep the attention of the people that is looking to it)


    Reading all the replays here I can say that "The Underground Gold Shop" can be a good solution, i never saw it (i think in Italian server we never had it, we also never had MO limit if i remember well). If i understand well this shop come out as event and gives the possibility to player to buy some stuff to improve their character, that's a big help for the new player and also puts inside the game more item that became more accessible.


    As i already told you with PM, the negative feedback that probably you are getting are from "new player" that never looked the game as it was before.


    No idea if you tried Siwa server but since there is no MO limit the clays from 1gold went to 130golds in 5 days, later, from 150g their price has rised up something like 100g each day pass untill something like 1500 ea (when i left Siwa server)

  • I think that would be a nice idea to bring back features like AP cards trading, it was a huge economy... Limitations on dungeons runs are a nice idea as well . Also in my opnion , a very huge economy problem are the alchmies like taro ones, that are still a reality on other servers, it's just insane how certain lvl 90 sets nowdays are going for 600k+, and once they were no more than 100k. I totally agree with the fact that players should do world bosses to farm end game content, but the drop rates are ridicoulous... I also know that it was already discussed for long time, but that's still a huge economy problem. My personal solution would be to bring back with like a 3 months delay ( so not often, just sometimes, or maybe during particular events like Xmast, Easter , idk) alchemies like taros and galactic nuclei. People will invest for sure more in things like that to buy clays in item all, than wasting 60k ap just to buy a 90 set. Also, if the economy is in the players hands, it's just a loop, there won't be a too long change, so i think that also putting in a price limitation on things like clays, that are used for basically every trade that's over 100k gold, wouldn't be a bad thing. Regards-

  • Few words towards the whole thing.

    First of all, good job to everyone involved on putting it together or contributing in any way. These are very important things that needed to be adressed, one way or another. I absolutely agree on every single point, well structured, backed up, nothing to really discuss here. However, i still got few thoughts.

    I know it may be a little bit unrelated, but the very first time i read this at work, I was really happy to see things are moving forward. But few things struck me. For example, I view CMs and us, players, in a tight symbiotic relationship. Or to be more accurate, a parent-child sort of relationship. Small kids shouldn't have the need to get to point knowing they shouldn't eat too many sweets or their teeth go bad. You have parents for that, who do those decisions for you, traditionally. And its same here. There shouldn't be a need for us, as community, come to these conclusions and come to people above us, begging them to do their job. To me it just feels like, the CMs are either uncapable, or unwilling to make decisions to change things.

    There's been a mention of upset playerbase being the reason of nothing changing. I think the current situation is no longer question of players satisfaction or preference. The economy is in absolutely trainwreck state and something HAS to be done, regardless of players opinion, there is nothing to discuss here at all. Safety measures regarding economy should have been put in place the moment the curve starting going up, and provide brief explaination about the situation, players concerns are irrelevant when the quality of life within the game is in danger. I'm glad we are talking about it, but I think overall this shouldn't be a topic worth needing discussion, cause there is nothing to discuss in situation like this.

    I like to see our players and GSs being responsible enough to fill in this parent figure into the game and adress issues, hell, even propose solutions. But I'd like to see this comming from people who are paid to make decisions and maintain certain quality within the game, not getting to the point where players themselves have to step out from trying to play the game, but have to actively save it, or no one else seems to care. That's what really upset me, as someone who grew up playing this game, with lots of passion for it. If a CM reads this, I do not mean any of this in bad light or manner. I'm hoping this is more or less of a mirror to see how people feel, and how things should be. We shouldn't pull opposite directions. As I mentioned above, we are very closely tied, and it would be better for everyone to cooperate, so I'd really like to see some things change. Bottom line, maybe a bit more transparency. More of those producer letters, updates on situations, explainations for certain decisions, and so on. To me, it shows you care, and creates bond between you and community. I believe it can happen, otherwise I wouldn't be saying any of this.

    I think right now, as mentioned in previous responses above me and the post itself, game needs 2 things. Slower access to gold generating systems, and bigger gold sinks. Underground Gold Shop (UGC further) was amazing system introduced many years ago, however it didnt work out for too long because of the high demand. It wasn't based on automatic system like buying things from NPC, so it kept the staff too busy. GSs didn't have access to the orders, so the only people who had manipulation priviledges were CMs back then. I think UGC would be nice addition to the game and useful gold sink, however it should be either automatized, or let GSs handle the orders. The team is already short handed and can barely manage RTs, I think adding heavy load like UGC is dangerous. So yeah, I'd love to see it back, I believe it would be effective solution, but it needs some improvement, or else its bound to fail after few months at best. In addition, gold raffles are not bad idea, but it needs to become more frequent than annual.

    That'd be for a gold sink, and well, to stop the massive gold generation, there needs to be MO limit and Final destination (FD further), 100%. ALTHOUGH, I think it's not that simple. I'm not sure if I remember the timeline correctly, so im using the data given by your research - the giant spike happened on 8th of march, 2015, when MO limit was removed, and further spike went up few years later when FD has also been removed. FD has been introduced sometime around 23rd September, 2013. At this time, I am sure MO limit was still 5. I see no spike in prices though, prior to this addition or after it. The line is almost so straight around this time, you could be making very controversial jokes about it, but I'll resist the urge.
    Where I'm trying to get with this paragraph is very important detail - As long as there is MO limit in place, FD makes no real significant difference, atleast not the one I could read throug the graph reflecting on prices and inflation overall. However, seeing MO limit not existing, FD was a slight stopgap from people abusing logging 5 chars on their own. Once FD AND MO limit got removed, the negative effect just got worse. The game was fine when MO limit existed without FD.

    Right now, we need both. I think we need every possible way there is to avoid this situation getting worse. But at the same time, while I fully agree on MO limit, I think FD should not be permanent solution. I think everyone who remembers or still does split runs, especially in places like BFR, FT, DD and Prismata, will agree FD is really not user friendly mechanism. I think FD as mechanism is very imperfect solution to a large scale problem. Definitely right now we have no other choice but to bring both back. But for future, I'd like to see FD being replaced with different measure, allowing people to still practice split runs, where you're not required to enter last boss room. What I'm trying to say is, we shouldn't permanently settle for user-unfriendly solutions as only solutions. For now though, FD is 100% needed, just hopefully not forever.

    There's so much I wanted to talk about about, but I'd like to just sum it up on positive note, that I'm really glad things are moving towards the right direction, and seeing some players put in so much work into projects like these, and having community provide useful feedback and ideas. It really does make me happy, and grateful. But it can't stop here. Things need to start changing. I don't care at what scale, but it needs to start now, because yesterday was already too late.

  • I believe things need to be done about the economy I really do, but I do believe that not all the options are a good, didn't the cms try to ban multi logging in dungeons? It didn't go down very well but multi logging is the main way ppl get there gold in dungeons maybe try it temporarily banning it.

  • I believe things need to be done about the economy I really do, but I do believe that not all the options are a good, didn't the cms try to ban multi logging in dungeons? It didn't go down very well but multi logging is the main way ppl get there gold in dungeons maybe try it temporarily banning it.

    There is no current plan to ban muli log, the sole purpose of this thread is to offer suggestions or feed back regarding changes to be made in the economy. Just want to emphasize that is a separate topic.

  • Not Trying to bring any negativity here, but i don't think MO limit and FD will affect the players with 100+ gold capped characters. Those highbies with lots of gold will still be better than any normal player. The majority who want this are people with tons of gold already. Im just ranting talking nonsense just wanted to post my thoughts. Im all for MO limit and FD though.

  • I believe things need to be done about the economy I really do, but I do believe that not all the options are a good, didn't the cms try to ban multi logging in dungeons? It didn't go down very well but multi logging is the main way ppl get there gold in dungeons maybe try it temporarily banning it.

    There is no current plan to ban muli log, the sole purpose of this thread is to offer suggestions or feed back regarding changes to be made in the economy. Just want to emphasize that is a separate topic.

    No it's not, multi logging is the main problem when it comes to ppl farming dungeons, if someone runs it on 5 characters at once it's nearly 2k for 5 runs. It is part of the problem and is not a separate issue at all. I'm offering a suggestion that's all.

  • Not Trying to bring any negativity here, but i don't think MO limit and FD will affect the players with 100+ gold capped characters. Those highbies with lots of gold will still be better than any normal player. The majority who want this are people with tons of gold already. Im just ranting talking nonsense just wanted to post my thoughts. Im all for MO limit and FD though.

    While it doesn't affect the players who don't run dungeons, it does plug the flood of excess gold. To remo

    ve the gold from the players you are referring to you need to introduce or improve gold sinks . I do briefly mention this in the video, but the thread itself goes a little more in depth.

  • TL;DR: Merchant like Jasid that appears for limited time (would probably be an event) weekly.

    -Merchant has Tarot Set pieces (or chances to give them)

    -Merchant has legacy and MFI lootbox

    -Merchant places debuff which limits the amount of times you can buy per day (or two days)

    -I do not know how to make this appeal to older, richer, hoarding players. Am taking ideas.


    I must say, this is an insanely well thought out plan. I want to explain adverse effects of this, and perhaps go more into detail.


    First: Yes, this will be bad for newbies at first. There is no other way to put this. It's an unfortunate consequence, but as the game is now, it is especially not good for newbies.


    Secondly: Forget about what you just saw me type because it's a lie. The consequential effect of placing MO limits and FD are not bad. Many people have explained why already, but just to give a brief synapses:


    1. It could encourage players to work together and actually do dungeons again. There are still people that do PT, however, I will say that the amount of people that do it is much less than before. -Frosch


    2. It will directly impact leechers, illegal gold sellers, and multi-clienters. This will put a strangle hold on the amount of gold that is being generated by the system, which brings me to... -Dark


    3. It will directly impact inflation. -Dark


    All of these things are good, HOWEVER, I *MUST* stress the importance of the gold sink that MUST come with this update. If the MO limit were to be introduced without the gold sink, people would just hoard their gold. And to be quite honest, even I have a strong urge to hoard gold after viewing this thread.


    So create an incentive


    I personally would suggest a revamping of the travelling Merchant Jasid, or make a similar NPC. The NPC could have endgame items that are attainable via endgame. Such as Tarot sets (-Princess) and Ancient Resonance Stones. I'm not sure if this is correct on my part, and I'm open to a debate on it, but I do believe that this shop should *not* have AP items with few exceptions.

    1. Legacy.


    Legacy is an integral part in the game's system. Newbies do not have access to good gear near what I call the mid-game (60). Up until that point, Orange sets are sufficient to go through the game's content, but for most classes, the endgame dungeons do not allow such a thing again until later levels, seeing as many of the sets that are craftable around that level lack in Defense/M-Defense. This is changed to scale later, but not until level 65+. I believe that a low level player should be able to get Legacy from this NPC, from a lootbox. But please.


    please.


    Please.



    PLEASE.



    Make the rates good. Otherwise no one will buy them and the gold sink will fail.



    2. MFI's.


    Again, I'm not entirely sure about this and I'm open to debate on this one, but putting MFI's in this lootbox would greatly help newbies get their gear fortified IF THE MFI'S ARE CAPPED AT MFI2/MFI3. Seeing as most softcap endgame content (when I say this in this section specifically, I am referring to levels 60-80) can be run with the fortifications +10 in the lower range, and +13 in the higher range. It would ultimately make new players more dependent on themselves, and less dependent on leechers/begging.



    I also believe that the shops prices should change on one or two contextual fronts


    1. Being the current state of the economy. Make it reflect the inflation and the amount of gold in the game. However, this must be done whilst keeping rich players in mind, or else it will not work.


    2. Make it based on level. I believe this is a good idea for two reasons.


    2a): It would take into account the "average" amount of gold someone at that level would earn. This is less for rich players and more for newbies.


    2b): It would make reaching the gold sink actually attainable so that newbies could spend their money on this NPC. More data from players would be needed


    I believe this NPC would also place a debuff on you, limiting the amount of times you can buy something from this shop. Whether it is weekly or daily is up to more analytical minds. I'm too lazy to think of that for the time being (plus I am typing this in a rush).


    To be quite honest though, I am typing this without an idea on what to do for the existing problem: hoarding rich players. The gold sink would also have to have an option or appeal to them for wanting to spend their astronomical amounts of money, and to be quite honest, I cannot come up with an idea for that. Someone else probably can though if this idea takes off, though.

  • As a long time player branching from 2009, here and there 2011-current. I've seen the changes of item prices especially a time where m-alchemy clays were 300g or even less. Back in 2015 I was still sporting dungeon drops with not a single gold on me. And seeing how much the economy has changed just surprises me. Back then dungeons were actually run together as a team with different classes. Yes the range of gold influx needs to change but to me what is most important was the MO limits and final destination. It gave us players a reason to actually work together and make new friends.

  • me personaly i would like to see MO limit go back to 5 each day and requiering Final Destination heres are some of the reasons:

    1. players now adays dont work in teams to have a good time with each other. this means players dont find new friends and they dont learn to work together. this in its turn made the game more of how much gold each person could make in one day.

    2. the prices of items that everyone want is ridiculacely high for example magic clays. we all that has played for a while remember when they were like 100-600g ea look at the prices now. 1400g for each players that dont have means to catch up with these prices see it as a pay to win game. this mean that most new players stoped playing quiet fast due to they not being able to enjoy the game for what it is.
    3. people with money now get even richer due to them being able to spam dgns more and more each day. this as well as useing four other chars at the same time means they get even richer. im not saying we should start not allowing multi logins in dgns im just saying theres a conection to the no limit being out there right now.

    these are just 3 of the things that i have gotten people complain about when they come to the game for the very first time and i wont say they aint right. the game has actualy started to turned in to a pay to win game but since my play style is to try and show people that the game can be played for completely free with $0 invested in AP the prices of things makes it harder but not impossible. but we can still fix this and this is just one out of afew ways to do so.

  • I've been suggesting ingame premium item shops (basic mallets, recipes to craft 100% mallets but you still need the malch pieces to finish, lower rate clovers, etc.) as potential gold sinks for about 10 years.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by kaitybre: Edit: Another reason is that a lot of our whales are gone and they removed AP card buying. ().

  • I've been suggesting ingame premium item shops (basic mallets, recipes to craft 100% mallets but you still need the malch pieces to finish, lower rate clovers, etc.) as potential gold sinks for about 10 years.

    I definitely think non tradeable mallets in NPC shops would go a long way in sinking gold.

    The only way to get SKBliss is through Oclay and its only the level 6 version. Add all levels for crafters, add sprite treats.


    With the addition of archive bonuses the idea of Mclay and Item Mall purchases won't go away because people will still want the "coolest and newest" items. You can keep MOs the way they are and literally just have 100% stuff be full on premo stuff and extra things that don't enhance the game. Now that's a little bit of iffy territory given that you can enhance costumes and mounts, but you still can run your MOs so everyone can have their cake and eat it too.

  • Make it a limit of 10 or 20 if we're really feeling an itch to put limits, but this game needs a dang premium underground gold shop like I've been nagging about for a decade.

    The reality is, the economy really can't survive on anything above 5.

    The only way you could make it so, is if you made the gold sinks even higher.

    This means that if the MO limit was set to '10', all of the gold sinks (NPC Prices, Auction Tax etc.) would need to be doubled to compensate - and I don't think anybody wants that.

  • Make it a limit of 10 or 20 if we're really feeling an itch to put limits, but this game needs a dang premium underground gold shop like I've been nagging about for a decade.

    The reality is, the economy really can't survive on anything above 5.

    The only you could make it so, is if you made the gold sinks even higher.

    This means that if the MO limit was set to '10', all of the gold sinks (NPC Prices, Auction Tax etc.) would need to be doubled to compensate - and I don't think anybody wants that.

    I edited my comment above but I said that another issue is that most of our whales are gone and the AP card buying thing hurt more than it helped.