The Economy: An appeal to reason

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  • Howdy. Used to play GF a ton and reading this is practically like opening a time capsule. Kind of depressing really... Looks like things just kept going as they did. I’m not currently playing, but this was a favorite topic of mine. So here’s my two cents.


    First off, a good economy is centered around what the average person can afford, not the currency itself. A good solution should try to balance out the ability that old/new p2p/f2p players have to succeed. That doesn’t mean people should be equal, but people should have the ability to put in effort and be meaningfully rewarded. (Note: an MO run is not rewarding if inflation makes it worthless.)


    The underground gold shop was amazing and widely well recieved. If I remember correctly, the two issues with it were that it required far too much work to do manually and there was no support for creating a more official form of it. This was definitely in the correct direction though. It increased supply of items bottlenecked through cash and allowed a very direct way of controlling the price of many staples. At the same time it lowered the gold contained in the game, decreasingly inflation. No clue how much attention it’ll get, but this should definitely be argued for until people act on it. It’s not a silver bullet, but helps a ton. Of course, other gold sinks help too. Their purpose would generally be a bit different though, being aimed at the large clumps, strictly with the goal of decreasing gold on the server.


    As my past meal ticket it’s tough to say, but MO limits should be part of the solution. Like the UGS, it’s not a silver bullet. People need a way to progress in game, and unfortunately many players aren’t cut out to play merchant. But as the chief gold source, the faucet should certainly be tightened more.


    The whole thing is a complicated problem. Thank goodness it’s mostly restricted to a virtual world. A good solution would require multiple adjustments and time. The sooner it gets put into motion, the better.


    Edit: Funny. Finally got around to reading all the posts after the original. Looks like I just repeated what’s being said over and over again here. MO limit, gold sinks, UGS. Guess it’s good to know everyone is clamoring together. Now just got to get this thread noticed somehow. Suppose a ton more people repeating main points here won’t hurt.

  • Make it a limit of 10 or 20 if we're really feeling an itch to put limits, but this game needs a dang premium underground gold shop like I've been nagging about for a decade.

    The reality is, the economy really can't survive on anything above 5.

    The only way you could make it so, is if you made the gold sinks even higher.

    This means that if the MO limit was set to '10', all of the gold sinks (NPC Prices, Auction Tax etc.) would need to be doubled to compensate - and I don't think anybody wants that.

    The only exception should be Forbidden Temple, as it was originally x10 via order 2.

  • Hello


    First of all i want to say, good job to Dark and Adam (and everyone else that help to make this happen)


    Second. It goes without say that i agreed with most of it. This have to change and soon, hopefully. There are some great suggestions and idea so far, glad to see this much support, keep them coming. I wont say/eco what everyone have said so far but id like to add to this instead.


    I know gold cap wont likely to increase so, what if we had an Item that sums the gold, 99k = 1 (insert name, gold bar??). We are deciding prices acording to mclays (exp, gala nuc will is, let say 500 clays). Giving the range of clays prices, its not static. If we had an item like a gold bar, 5 bar 500k for the gala. We can do it like that but... the hassle of going to 4-5 chars to get the gold and send.. yeah. I hope we can have something like this added to if we get a revamp with the current gold system.


    Thanks everyone.

  • Like most other people here I 100% agree that MO limit and FD need to come back. When aeria tried to remove multi logging, the community decided that this is not a solution, so this is the only thing we can do and have to do. I really appreciate the positive reactions to this thread, as in the past most people were really upset when the topics FD and MO limit came up. A lot of people posted great ideas, like the Gold Underground shop, which some people like me never heard about but which seem to me like a really good way to take some gold out of the game, and I think if the CMs/ PMs listen to the voices of their GS and some players its possible to create an underground gold shop which fits the server as it is today and does its job in removing gold. Other ideas I had regarding gold sinks are more guild VFS groups -> removes gold and brings more items into the game which currently are pretty expensive, or something I thought about is a way to spend gold from a guilds bank to save the Yggdrasil level you archived on the past month, so if you had yggdrasil on stage 6 your guild can pay smt like 30k to save this stage for the next month (like I said just an idea, can still be worked on and is probably pretty hard to implemet).


    To sum it up, we NEED MO limit, FD and more ways of gold sink, else we will never stop the inflation on our server and clays will be 10k each one day.

    #savesanctum <3

  • i agree that the price of things are start to be crazy on game but i dont think the reson is questing or dunguns and thos things you just say


    the main resons is


    1. rearty of items

    as long as drop rate in tables and items in game is low the items goin be so rear means few players only have it and more players need it and that get us to the point when we C/O ( Corrint offer ) the them and its keep rising so for the item to be low price drop rate in game must be fix


    2. Tables we spind to much Clays on table to get items that sell for lower pricess and you get 1-2 items that have good price and mybe not in some casess so that get us back to point 1 things become rear and the losess are grate so to get some of the losess back items sell high so to fix this we must have decint tabls with decint items with decint rate so the items price drop


    ( when many have the items thay need that lead to lowering items price and that lead to lowering Clay pricsess to


    3. the last thing is the help of the players them self and its the hardest part thay shod not buy from someone who sell overprice this and force him to keep his items or lower it and that part required help from all servers memers thay work as team


    but as long as some have gold or clay and thay dont care much abut the economy thay just wana buy fast to power up fast leading to destroying anything eals becose price stick in this server fast espically when its riseing but hard to lower it back


    so basiclly in my opinion to lower pricess in game we need the help everyone even GF team to flood the game with items and Kill the rear Elemints in it


    last sorry for my poor english Languge

  • I agree. I have often tried to play this game for a long time but the ever-increasing prices as I returned (2011, 2015 and 2018) grieved me a lot because to get things demanded more and more time of play being that I can not stay playing many hours a day.

    I have never been an experienced player in any way, I never went from level 70 because I could not advance more than that without relying on someone to clean the Fenix Tower being that I appreciate 5 more players working together to finish the phase than paying for just a high-level someone to do it for me.

    necroDie with honor at least. Fall by firing, Fall conjuring one last magic, no matter, as long as it is with honor.

  • Sooo happy to see someone trying to do something about the economy, good job!


    I think the underground gold shop thing sounds amazing and would be a great gold sink.


    Please add limit back to MOs.


    Also general store could sell useful stuff like mallets, transporter stones or even fort clovers/sage stones.

    And NPC or item to roll costume prefixes would be amazing too.

  • So to clarify: Although the gold has been shown to come from Mission Orders, as pointed in the video, you think the main reasons for gold inflation are because over time, things have become more scarce, that there is a conspiracy that every player in the game is deliberately over-charging or over-paying for items, and that the solution to this is to also inflate the supply of items using Magic Alchemy Tables?


    Did you read the thread or watch the video at all?


    Aside from items that are exclusively released on alchemy tables, could you also give the names of some items outside of alchemy tables that you think have become more rare as time has gone on - perhaps we can start there.


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I'm also posting to let everybody know that I've added subtitles to the video - hopefully those who do not use English as a first language will now be able to use the Auto-Translate option to be able to watch the video in the subtitles of their main language:


    ofRueJ6.png

  • I'm also posting to let everybody know that I've added subtitles to the video - hopefully those who do not use English as a first language will now be able to use the Auto-Translate option to be able to watch the video in the subtitles of their main language:


    ofRueJ6.png

    I contribute translating to another language in the hope that this reaches the PT server.

    necroDie with honor at least. Fall by firing, Fall conjuring one last magic, no matter, as long as it is with honor.

  • I'm also posting to let everybody know that I've added subtitles to the video - hopefully those who do not use English as a first language will now be able to use the Auto-Translate option to be able to watch the video in the subtitles of their main language:


    ofRueJ6.png

    I contribute translating to another language in the hope that this reaches the PT server.

    Thank you very much!

    I have accepted your contribution, and it should be live on the video to select now - please let me know if you run into any issues.

  • I agree with this 100%! Data does not lie. The economy is in need of great fixing, so old and new players(me being one of them) can enjoy the game to the fullest extent. And they're are many ways to provide gold sinks in the game, such as NPC selling NTs like Blacksmith Mallets, or increase the cost to fortify equip/gear. Aeria please listen to those who worked hard in this great cause!

  • Hi everyone!


    First of all thanks to Dark and Adamont for this amazing and important investigation and for bringing this up to the community. At the end of the day we are all players who want to enjoy this game and keep it as player-friendly as possible.


    The prices and the amount of gold on this server are really insane at the moment. The first time I saw this was when someone was buying 650 mclays for 800g each just after AP-Cards trading was forbidden. I asked myself where this gold might come from after some more people started looking for amounts like this. Maybe I am just too poor to understand but I have the feeling that the AP-Cards are not sold ingame anymore but might be used on gold seller websites. To ban those or even to try get control over them might be one solution to the huge amount of gold on the server.


    In terms of MO limitations and FD I can absolutely see the change that was brought with the removal of those. But to be honest I don't see Mission Orders be the main problem. The main problem I see is the fact that you can pentalog in there. When I think about the DE server before the merge, we did not have MO limitations or FD but multi logging was strictly forbidden. Leeching PT was the start for many players: we had fun talking in the party, made friends, had our known runners who even helped with advice outside of PT. This is how I myself was able to improve and learn so I could run dungeons in a party and help others.

    I know things change and I can fully understand that MO limitations are needed on this server. But I think FD is not because especially newbies, not perfect equiped players or classes with lower movement speed would be in disadvantage. It can be very uncomfortable to be the one everyone is waiting for to get out and it might be frustrating too.

    In general I don't see why multi-logging is allowed in dungeons. The announce many of us may have seen ingame says, that multi-logging in any instance that requires player attendance is strictly forbidden. When we want to be precise one may say that MO's need players attendance too since it is a group mission.


    One pretty good gold sink that we don't have that long are the violet magic stones available at the general store owner. These consumables are very good and cost nearly as much as other consumables in AH. Just like the price of Delicious Turkey, Beef Tip Salad, Fishpancakes or Pork Skewers falls or rises depending on mclay tables, the price of the violet stones falls depending on city fame. So what if we put the main consumables (let's say those with blue names) in an NPC store?


    The Underground Gold Shop is something I've never heard of and I was pretty surprised that something like this existed. It sounds like an amazing thing to me and an opportunity to get interesting items you would not usually have easy access to.


    That is it from me:)

  • Hi everyone!


    First of all thanks to Dark and Adamont for this amazing and important investigation and for bringing this up to the community. At the end of the day we are all players who want to enjoy this game and keep it as player-friendly as possible.

    Hey, thank you for taking the time to read and reply to the thread, it really does help!


    The prices and the amount of gold on this server are really insane at the moment. The first time I saw this was when someone was buying 650 mclays for 800g each just after AP-Cards trading was forbidden. I asked myself where this gold might come from after some more people started looking for amounts like this. Maybe I am just too poor to understand but I have the feeling that the AP-Cards are not sold ingame anymore but might be used on gold seller websites. To ban those or even to try get control over them might be one solution to the huge amount of gold on the server.

    Gold seller websites are certainly an issue, and something that does need to be tackled.

    The solutions provided in this thread should also aid in helping to prevent them from generating so much gold too.

    In terms of MO limitations and FD I can absolutely see the change that was brought with the removal of those. But to be honest I don't see Mission Orders be the main problem. The main problem I see is the fact that you can pentalog in there. When I think about the DE server before the merge, we did not have MO limitations or FD but multi logging was strictly forbidden. Leeching PT was the start for many players: we had fun talking in the party, made friends, had our known runners who even helped with advice outside of PT. This is how I myself was able to improve and learn so I could run dungeons in a party and help others.

    I know things change and I can fully understand that MO limitations are needed on this server. But I think FD is not because especially newbies, not perfect equiped players or classes with lower movement speed would be in disadvantage. It can be very uncomfortable to be the one everyone is waiting for to get out and it might be frustrating too.

    In general I don't see why multi-logging is allowed in dungeons. The announce many of us may have seen ingame says, that multi-logging in any instance that requires player attendance is strictly forbidden. When we want to be precise one may say that MO's need players attendance too since it is a group mission.


    I agree that penta-logging is a significant issue, and it definitely inflates gold by 5x the amount for no real benefit.

    Final Destination does help put a stop to this.

    On the topic of Mission Orders limitations, you can see from the line graph provided in the first post of the thread that gold began to inflate once mission order limitations (at a set number of 5 per day) were taken off.

    While Final Destination was a large contributing factor that only made it worse - hypothetically if Final Destination was still left on to this day, gold would still be inflating, just at a slower rate.

    This is why it's important that both of these restrictions are put in place.


    One pretty good gold sink that we don't have that long are the violet magic stones available at the general store owner. These consumables are very good and cost nearly as much as other consumables in AH. Just like the price of Delicious Turkey, Beef Tip Salad, Fishpancakes or Pork Skewers falls or rises depending on mclay tables, the price of the violet stones falls depending on city fame. So what if we put the main consumables (let's say those with blue names) in an NPC store?


    The Underground Gold Shop is something I've never heard of and I was pretty surprised that something like this existed. It sounds like an amazing thing to me and an opportunity to get interesting items you would not usually have easy access to.


    That is it from me:)

    These are some really great ideas for gold sinks - I've put these and the other suggestions mentioned in this thread into a document that I've shared with the GMs.


    Consumables especially I think are a great idea, because players need a constant supply of them, due to their disappearance after use.

  • Its cool that you put so much effort into tryna help the economy and all but I'm not sure its a good idea to bring back MO limit / FD just because thats kinda the only way the lower geared players and some of the higher geared players make gold yanno? Even if it does fix things ( which it probably wont fix IMMEDIATELY ) lots of people still wont be able to afford things just because there's no real way to make gold for them.


    TLDR: people who make gold off of AP , plvling , crafting, claying will benefit from this ( most of the player base ) but some people still do dungeons / run their alts through dungeons for gold.

  • Its cool that you put so much effort into tryna help the economy and all but I'm not sure its a good idea to bring back MO limit / FD just because thats kinda the only way the lower geared players and some of the higher geared players make gold yanno? Even if it does fix things ( which it probably wont fix IMMEDIATELY ) lots of people still wont be able to afford things just because there's no real way to make gold for them.


    TLDR: people who make gold off of AP , plvling , crafting, claying will benefit from this ( most of the player base ) but some people still do dungeons / run their alts through dungeons for gold.


    While dungeon runs may be the only way some players make gold, the problem with allowing them to run unlimited dungeon runs as that while they think they're earning 'lots' of gold, that 'lots' becomes worth and less the more times they run it (over time).


    With limitations, due to inflation now being prevented, once more gold sinks are in place and the gold begins to deflate, that gold value will increase.

    What this means is that , where right now players are running (example) 100 dungeons to be able to earn what they want, they might now only need to run 20, because the gold value is worth that much more.


    This is what a lot of people seem to misunderstand when it comes to limitations - they actually benefit players even more than they realize, especially new ones.


    A huge majority of the games gold comes from dungeons, so those other services you mentioned will have their price scale accordingly.

  • Unfortunatly you are trying to create a more socialist (communist) economy in a capitalistic system. I really get what you are trying to accomplish, gold should be generated and sunk at about the same speed, and even some inflation in the game is in a normal economic system not a bad thing. Even in your own graph you see that over the first years the inflation is managable, but after the MO removal it has gone through the roof. Grand Fantasia has become the online version of Zimbabwe. The issue here is that you are appealing to a solution that would be nice as an entirety but not for the individual level. Yes, the amount of gold in the server is a problem that needs to be dealt with, but i dont think that the actual 'powerfull' or rich people ingame would want that to happen. Realisticly its like saying to a company as Ford that they could get less profit but in the long run would have the same profit as they have now, just in a different value. I think Aeria is right about thinking that WITHOUT the right explenation this plan would not succeed. Lets split up this train of thought into some parts;



    Obtaining Gold:

    As Dark said in his piece, obtaining gold has become an easy feat. Since running is such an easy task now (cause characters can easily solo dungeons now) and werent from back in the old days where you actually needed a party, you should actually make it harder to get money. If you, back in the old days needed 3 minutes with 5 player party to get 200 gold, that means that if you can do it now in half of the time with 5 characters you actually get 10 times the money instead of the 5 times Dark talked about. You actually forget that characters, archivebuffs, +20, everything happened in the meantime, but YET again Aeria fails to devellop that what is left behind. You cant expect the same value return for something that has actually been soo much more easy to get by. So, i guess you already know what im going to propose. Devaluate MO's! Since MO's are 94% worth more than any other quest, they also take WAY less time. If you already cut down the amount of gold you get from 200 to 50 per run, you get 'only' 2.5 times as much gold with 5 chars as you got back in the day. This might seem a little to extreme for some of you, and also a bit unfair for newer players, which is why i think it might even be better to increase the gold value from normal story quests. That way new players learn about the game while getting at the same time a good amount of gold to get started with. Basically those quests cant be repeated, so it is a 1 time investment of gold into the main pool of gold that is already in the world, the problem is the amount of gold that can be put in again and again by the MO or repeatable quests.


    Also 1 thing that i would like to suggest here, which will make sense later on in this piece, is that you might want to have an option of trading Mclays in for Gold at an NPC (for a brief moment of time). That way GMs actually link gold to mclays and you get rid of the amount of mclays there is in the server too. This feature could be also turned other way around for Mclays or other items, but at least there would be a price tag instead of an ever increasing value.


    Goldsinks:

    In order to have an equal goldsink to get rid of the gold that is already there, you will need a sink that will be based on a persons gold, and not on a base value. This means that you should actually pay a % of the amount of gold you have and not a base value. This principle is already there in the case of selling items in the Auction House. This method can be seen as the Social-Capitalist State Taxes. People pay an % of their income to taxes, the higher the income the higher the tax will be. Such sinkholes could be normal sinkholes like Town Portals or even Guild Buffs.

    Thinking about the fact that normally prices in a country rise with the inflation of ones income, as Dark explained in his video with the example of bread. But bread can be seen as a good produced by someone (Example ingame could be GM wishes), where the person that has suchs goods demands a higher price. Yet there is also a second problem and that is the prices of common goods, like expenses for the State Security or Road Maintenance (ingame Town Portals or other common sinks). The expenses for such common goods allways rise in normal countries which makes that the market value stays the same over the years, YET in Grand Fantasia this isnt the case. Poor management on Aeria's side made that the game got an inflation boom of which it can barely recover. Prices of such sinks should rise, and also accordingly to a persons Lvl and amount of gold. One can say that people that are lvl 100 are mostly the richest and therefor can pay most.

    Since i now told you a little bit about the common gold sinks, and that Aeria is in fact basicly a State controlling those sinks, they could actually influence them differently too. Goldsinks like GvG points (Trading in Dews for Money) could be more efficient if the right items are there for sale. Also Aeria could opt for a certain period of time that GM wishes or even Galactic Nucleus could be available for Gold during that period of time. This would decrease the amount of gold ingame by a lot! which makes the 'rich' not that rich anymore.


    Shifting Values:
    What is one thing people value more than gold? Right, Mclays! This economy is based purely on mclays by the lack of anything better. There are several issues with it. Money shifting in value is one of them, but also the 99999,99.99 gold cap. which could use another 0 in my opinion. Normally, in a perfect gaming environment, a single item shouldnt be worth more than 1 gold cap. But nowadays you even need several accounts to harness your gold in order to pay for 1 item. This is why people shifted to buying Mclays. This has increased over the last years as seen in the prices for Mclays. But even mclays are not a good solution for a stable economy. It is normal for economies to shif to other values, it happens everywhere even in 2008 crash of the market. The stock worth of Gold was soo much more worth than ever before. Cause something that is always there and always has a certain use is being invested in. The problem is, there is an increasing demand for Mclays, which raises the prices, but there is no view on the amount of Mclays there is in circulation. Therefor, investing in Mclays is risky. You are actually creating a bubble that could burst whenever Aeria wants. Cause see it like this, if you have the next month without good Mclay tables, you are basically losing value over your Mclays and thus your money. Investing in a healthy economy where everything can be bought by gold, and there being not TOO MUCH gold is a MUST!


    Concluding:
    Im sure i have forgotten a lot of thoughts i still have with this subject, and not everything might be entirely clear, but i can enlighten people that want to discuss about it in Discord as well! I even might add more after this post too. Most of these things are idea's and im not saying anything (or everything) should happen in order to fix the economy. I do know that you need to be aware of the fact that the game can not survive another year like this year, not as it is now! Everything has to be faster, better, stronger... but nobody ever thinks that the right balance of Slower, worse, weaker, is also good.

  • So to clarify: Although the gold has been shown to come from Mission Orders, as pointed in the video, you think the main reasons for gold inflation are because over time, things have become more scarce, that there is a conspiracy that every player in the game is deliberately over-charging or over-paying for items, and that the solution to this is to also inflate the supply of items using Magic Alchemy Tables?

    conspiracy :rolleyes: i didnt say that

    its just everyone wana earn more and more and the more item become rear and many need it the higher its sell


    Adding Fd to dunguns wont change things much mybe wont change it at all as long as we got items that show 1 time every month and few only get it


    for exsamble if player have stone that he feel everyone need and got 10-20 wisper the moment you link the stone the stone lets say cost 5k for exsamble
    the frist thing that player goin do is C/O in trade chat

    and thos who need it so bad goin start rising little by little and it go over the price it was 5k lets say 8k

    then by chance other player saw it sold for 8k he start selling 8k and the price stuck


    been in grand fantasia for 7 years fd been removed and got back and removed agine


    and i granted you this the only times price of items and clays go dawn is when rate on tables was good

    its even in real life when things become hard to get price gos up and when its easy to get its gos dawn


    it dosnt need math amd maps and vidos for normal ordnary person like me to undrstand that


    conspiracy : no its not


    its the way humans act




  • I agree, but realistically would they be able to charge these prices and have people pay them if the gold on the server was not there to support such high selling/buying costs?

    What you've described is the reason that prices rise with inflation - and you're correct, but you have to look at the reasons they're behaving that way, and how they're able to get away with it.

  • i did watch and read it. Just was saying. Don't people who took time to create their characters and put in time to do dungeons daily have a say to? I don't do dungeons for gold i have other ways to make gold. Im curious would there be a restriction on farming NC like someone i know does for hours?

  • all what i mean MR.Dark is FD not the reson even if you close the dunguns there other ways to get gold such as


    selling lvl

    crafting

    selling mats

    selling drops

    vfs

    scaming ===sorry to add that but its way of geting gold

    selling Wishes

    using Ap
    claying

    and the list is way to long abut the mithods of geting gold

    so FD alone wont solve the problem

    and you cant block all the ways of earning gold in game to just make it AP use


    i gived you exsable up and naw im give you somthing that happen in game really


    m-alchmy was 800g but after Glactic nuclss its rise to 1k++

    why do you think that happen

    its just becose most players want it and rear item and table like that dont come alot so clay sellers found it as chance to make profit and rise there pricess becose thay knew everyone goin buy or lose there chance


    but if that item was in every month table or every 2 month tabe i dont think the effect or the damg will be that big becose if i dont get it this month its ok im get it next month


    that just 1 item


    few days ago another thing happen we got x3 xp for 1 day mybe less than day


    100% charm rised from 350 to 850g becose everyone in rush to grind to lvl and there isnt much charms in AH or trade chat few ppl have it and thay start to make mony from rising there price


    that is another item


    im not talking abut conspiracy or plaming anyone


    the only way to force ppl to sell cheep is by lowering the items pricess


    and lowering the run chancess wont lower the pricess becose dosnt mater if you have gold or not if my item rear and you wanted its goin be sold to you high where do you get gold the sellers wont care much


    i hoppe i explane my point in good way with my poor english and i hoppe that i didnt offiend anyone i was just tryint to help


    and im still saying


    Kill the Rear Elimints

  • i did watch and read it. Just was saying. Don't people who took time to create their characters and put in time to do dungeons daily have a say to? I don't do dungeons for gold i have other ways to make gold. Im curious would there be a restriction on farming NC like someone i know does for hours?

    Of course they have a say, but the empirical data shows that it's a problem - and it actually benefits them to restrict the runs, since it would increase the value of gold, requiring them to do less runs.

    I'd also like to add that making 4 alternative characters and leveling them to 70~ish is something that's possible to do in the space of a weekend - and even if it were to take a long time, it wouldn't be a good enough reason to allow gold to continue to inflate at the rate at it is.

    To answer your question - no, because Nightmare Corridor doesn't generate gold, and if anything sinks it due to entry cost.


    As I've explained in the thread and in the video - these methods of getting gold do not matter to inflation.

    The methods do not generate gold, they only pass previously generated gold from one person to another.

    Inflation is due to the amount of extra gold being added to the server, and the gold being added is coming from dungeons by an incredibly large margin.


    That's where the hole needs to be plugged - all of the gold traded via these other methods you mention will scale with it.

  • i undrstand what you mean Totally but you dont undrstand me what im saying the resons of rising pricess in not

    Inflation



    its the

    Rear Elimints

    or lets say rear items


    i undrstand your theory but its not the reson


    like i say even if you close dunguns forever it wont force me to sell items low


    becose i dont care how you get your gold my rear item i wont sell it low i wana make profit for the max i can get befor it becose avalable and everyone have it and its price drop


    and we got items that everyone need but i think thay still cheep


    like thos normal nuclss thay didnt get effected by the bad economy price risess becose most ppl have it so its pricess are decint start from 2k for lowest and 25-40 for the highest depand on the tybe but when you comper it to Glactic nuclss most hardest rear item 2k clay the defrinc is big



    AND im say it agine

    Inflation not the reson


    rear items and low rates IS THE Reson


    Kill the Rear Elimints


  • Okay, so if it's not the reason, I'd love to hear your explanation as to why the rise in the price of AP Cards is in direct correlation with the removal of Mission Order Limits and Final Destination, as shown by this graph:


    40ui0LQ.png


    Sources: https://0bin.net/paste/2FjsLSw…kU9b4FKCL-dFiUrxfs70CfzU5

  • I'm not talking about tho who has lvl 100's but still logging in with 5 chars to make gold in PR/BFR/FT ,
    But The ones i m talking about are thos new players that of course struggling to survive in this game since everything is expensive thos ones how do you think they'll get gather gold?

    So to give a brief explanation:

    The value of gold is determined by the amount of total gold available on the server.

    The total amount of gold on the server is permanently increasing due to the inflation caused by unlimited dungeon runs.

    Once sufficient gold sinks are in place that are capable of removing the excess gold, the value of gold will increase. (Meaning less gold = worth more).

    This means that the prices of items will begin to return to being lower, and the players who are running dungeon to earn gold will be able to afford more items with less runs.


    Right now however, due to inflation these players are required to run a large number of dungeons to even attempt to keep up with the players who are doing many runs and causing the gold to inflate and its value to decrease.


    I hope this explanation is sufficient.


    Second thing iwanna say is Going to as i said THE ONES THAT's reponsable of updates ans stuffs pleas pleas add more content to our game more archive updates more items more things and thanks !

    I guess you all read that : and my post will be probably deleted in few sec /min/hours idk so i will screen my post then Put in a new One


    Archive updates are in the works, but no promises can be made as to when they will be available.

  • As i said in my last post ! i read everything i know what you mean by gold inflation but do you know that the new players aren't that mush affecting the gold inflation since they only run with 1 account mostly ! what they do is :they buy PT they pay and they get like how mush? we say they get 70 Each run every 10 runs they 700 g you think that affect gold inflation? also 700 G in 10 runs.

    Then we find people that actually sell PT for gold are only using one Account , maybe 2 that fact mean that they probably lag or slow at the runs or something but what i wanna say is that most runners are slow it's like 4-5 min the good ones are like 3 min each run 10 runs = 700 G for the new players they need 7 hours to make 7 k gold , 7 k ?? you think this will affect the gold inflation ? no of course no

    You can just go AF K kasslow and you'll see people that have more than 5 million gold , how did i know ? ( WTB M-clays x5000 1.1 k EA ) WTB X1000 thos ones have the most gold in the server


    saying gold inflation gave me An other idea why not giving thos rich people that want to buy 5000 clay more items to buy and here we know why underground shop then we wait to see the gold graph


    as i said MO Mustn't be limited at all but making only 2 clients able to open is a good and a perfect solution !

    Don't put everything on how to fix the economy but say what will result on making MO limited ?

    Pros and Cons

    thank you !

    I can also say that not limitting MO but instead of that Limitting the Clients is a new version of MO limit it's an evolution of MO limit

  • As i said in my last post ! i read everything i know what you mean by gold inflation but do you know that the new players aren't that mush affecting the gold inflation since they only run with 1 account mostly ! what they do is :they buy PT they pay and they get like how mush? we say they get 70 Each run every 10 runs they 700 g you think that affect gold inflation? also 700 G in 10 runs.

    Then we find people that actually sell PT for gold are only using one Account , maybe 2 that fact mean that they probably lag or slow at the runs or something but what i wanna say is that most runners are slow it's like 4-5 min the good ones are like 3 min each run 10 runs = 700 G for the new players they need 7 hours to make 7 k gold , 7 k ?? you think this will affect the gold inflation ? no of course no

    You can just go AF K kasslow and you'll see people that have more than 5 million gold , how did i know ? ( WTB M-clays x5000 1.1 k EA ) WTB X1000 thos ones have the most gold in the server


    What you're doing is comparing the gold made via dungeon runs to gold made via other methods.

    And again, I will explain.

    Dungeon runs generate gold, more gold than anything else in the game by 94%.

    Generated gold is what causing inflation, not methods which involve trading already generated gold from one player to another.

    Using an arbitrary number such as 700g or 7k makes absolutely no difference, the value of that number is relative to the amount of gold on the server - if the gold sinks can't keep up with the influx in gold (thus causing it to rise over time), then yes, it will make a difference to inflation.


    And as I explained in the thread and above:


    Quote

    Once sufficient gold sinks are in place that are capable of removing the excess gold, the value of gold will increase. (Meaning less gold = worth more).

    This means that the prices of items will begin to return to being lower, and the players who are running dungeon to earn gold will be able to afford more items with less runs.

    I'm not sure how much more of an explanation I can give, especially when I've provided a chart showing the trend of gold inflation and the point at which it has spiked.

  • Okay, so if it's not the reason, I'd love to hear your explanation as to why the rise in the price of AP Cards is in direct correlation with the removal of Mission Order Limits and Final Destination, as shown by this graph

    ohohoho we talking abut AP naw things geting intrsting .


    simpl 2 resons


    1. AP stoped selling ingame


    2. GM wish selling higher Becose title become wished

    and by what i see in the Graph you made at that time 23/3/2015 we got many problems in servers and many things add like Roll backs - server crashes - players quiting the game and Server Merges etc other resons making the server unstable

    that get us to the point of rear items too


    few ap sellers mean thay cntroll the ap price thay can rise and lower as thay like becose thay have that power ( having somthing no one eals have ) ( selling ap )

    and that lead us to stop selling ap in game

    that lead us to GM wish price rised little becose naw thay start using the ap that shod be sold and selling it as gm wish + title at that time gm wish was still around 80-100k

    then thay remove titles from wish and make TITLES wised thing like item

    that lower the profit for gm wish sellers so thay decided to rise the all thing and gm wish prise rise agine

    from 80-100 to 150-200k -250k

    then from there every item also start to rise becose many other things

    drop rate

    table rate

    i dont wana say bad items but what i mean items players dont use much in dailly days ( rearlly use items ) dont make much profit

    so that lead to everything rise agine

    and if you talking abut AP card in Real life

    everything in real life rising naw days everywher Economy is bad for wars and other stuff

    so we goin around and around and come back to the same point rear item

    i talk in game with almost 30e person in gam thay all think the same and without me saying it thay say it befor me

    player that the chancess of that

    1 person got item and 100000 dont

    that 1 person goin control the price of the item

    but when

    50000 person got item and 50000 person dont

    pricess goin be dicint or low

    like i say the more rear the item the higher it gos


    so


    Kill The Rear Elimint

  • tl;dr


    cap dungeon runs with MOs. the intent of the game isnt to be able buy an mfi after 1 day of running PT. People used to do literal thousands of PT, ACV, SMF (yes people used to run that dungeon), BFT, and FT runs over the course of years and years in order to build up their character SLOWLY. You're a complete imbecile if you think that a couple of players spending millions of gold on buying clays is the same as people running thousands of PT runs in a week. It's blatantly obvious that the problem is the fact that the people can run the same amount of dungeons in ONE DAY that used to take TWO HUNDRED DAYS or more.

  • I've been referencing AP since the first post of this thread, and the line graph depicts the value of gold in relation to AP when AP selling was allowed.


    I'm not going to continue communication with someone who is not willing to read the provided information before taking the time to make a response.


    Once you've taken the time to read the information provided and watch the video (which I made specifically for those who lack the time to read everything in depth), I'm more than happy to pick this conversation up again.


    tl;dr


    cap dungeon runs with MOs. the intent of the game isnt to be able buy an mfi after 1 day of running PT. People used to do literal thousands of PT, ACV, SMF (yes people used to run that dungeon), BFT, and FT runs over the course of years and years in order to build up their character SLOWLY. You're a complete imbecile if you think that a couple of players spending millions of gold on buying clays is the same as people running thousands of PT runs in a week. It's blatantly obvious that the problem is the fact that the people can run the same amount of dungeons in ONE DAY that used to take TWO HUNDRED DAYS or more.

    This is exactly correct, and is a great explanation of what I've been trying to explain to the poster above.

  • I'm not going to continue communication with someone who is not willing to read the provided information before taking the time to make a response

    i saw the vido 2 times btw i didnt see AP in it its just talking abut economy in genral


    I'm not going to continue communication with you ether becose its seems that you are tryint to Ignore everything everyone saying and force your opinon on others


    many posted tryint to explane that dunguns is not the reson -- FD is not the reson get in your head pls


    and if you take your time go to the game and ask seller of any items why so high


    thay goin say the folloing annsurs


    its hard to get


    its rear


    or becose other selling like that


    dont dont go around saying that

    I'm not going to continue communication with someone who is not willing to read the provided information

    when your response geting limited and you got nothing eals to say


    like i said b4 im here from the day this game open doors


    i dont need graph or vidos big words to make simple person to see the big pic


    why templers stone sell so hgih


    becose its rear and few only have it its sell for 2k clay


    what the hell have to do with FD


    ????????????????????????????????????



    Kill The Rear Elimint

  • i saw the vido 2 times btw i didnt see AP in it its just talking abut economy in genral


    I'm not going to continue communication with you ether becose its seems that you are tryint to Ignore everything everyone saying and force your opinon on others



    I've linked you the part of the video which covers the relation of AP Card value to influx of gold on the server.


    It starts at 2:34 and ends at 3:34, consisting of a whole minute of the video, which comes in at just under 25% of it.


    Which one of us is ignoring things here?



    when your response geting limited and you got nothing eals to say

    You can believe it's because I've got nothing else to say if you want to, but wouldn't that be rather odd of me as someone who spent time making a 4 and a half minute video and a very lengthy thread explaining the causes and effects?


    The reason I'm limiting my responses to you is because I don't wish to waste my time explaining things to somebody who is not willing to sit down and read the information.

  • ve linked you the part of the video which covers the relation of AP Card value to influx of gold on the server.

    you talking abut AP as item as sample you didnt talk abut it as reson

    omg dont twist things the most of the vido and the posts and talking abut FD AND dunguns and economy so you want me to ignore everything and focas on that Little 1 mint ???


    You can believe it's because I've got nothing else to say if you want to, but that seems rather odd coming from someone who spent time making a 4 and a half minute video and a very lengthy thread explaining the causes and effects.

    i love the post and i thank for making it we waited long for someone to make such move so we can talk abut it and the vido is grate ( tho i think its talking abut the Wrong reson ) its still grate effort and thanks for that

    The reason I'm limiting my responses to you is because I don't wish to waste my time explaining things to somebody who is not willing to sit down and read the information.

    The reason you limiting your responses is i hammerd everything you say and you got no response to that its not my problem its yours fix it


    i give exsamples

    i give facts of things has happen


    and all been agnored becose thay true


    and you just wana force others to agree with you to make dunguns FD


    OK IM NOT COMING AGINE NOT POSTING AGINE IN HERE


    if that bothering you so much and destroying your plans


    cya -GL :thumbup:in add FD


    but at the end nothing goin change as long as items are rear

    Kill The Rear Elimint

  • I love how this person thinks they are right when most of the people here agreed with Dark.


    The reason most people agreed is because dark's statements are backed by empirical data whereas yours are backed by you crying for more money and gold, speaking for new people as if they agree with you. But so far I don't see any NEW players agreeing with you.

  • like i say even if you close dunguns forever it wont force me to sell items low


    If you stop people from spamming MOs all day they won't have as much gold as before and can't afford 1,3k Clays anymore. Due this, the seller of the clays can't sell his clays anymore, which makes him to sell them at lower prices. This effect is obviously not going to happen at the same day, but slowly it will, with some time.


    Also, Dark is talking about generating gold, not trading between gold which is already in the circulation. And if players generate more gold, things are going to be more expensive - no matter if they are rare or not.

  • i've been looking at your conversation both of you and i think that what mom's say is true if you wanna talk about economey it's not only about dungeons i dont support that idea at all but many things can fix the economey such as selling AP again / make new updates on archives fix the rate of items so you can fix their price if i 'm the only one who have an item i can cotrol it's price in the AH no matter how poor are people but if many people have it or got it the price will be controlled as the market ! i see that mom has a reason on what she's talking about

  • like i say even if you close dunguns forever it wont force me to sell items low


    If you stop people from spamming MOs all day they won't have as much gold as before and can't afford 1,3k Clays anymore. Due this, the seller of the clays can't sell his clays anymore, which makes him to sell them at lower prices. This effect is obviously not going to happen at the same day, but slowly it will, with some time.


    Also, Dark is talking about generating gold, not trading between gold which is already in the circulation. And if players generate more gold, things are going to be more expensive - no matter if they are rare or not.

    i agree with you i give you a thumps up but that still doesnt mean stop MO but there are many ways one of them is undergroud SHop /GM titles shop and many other servicies that the game can offer

  • If the people who control the items control the price and make it higher than you can afford then they never get their money because they CAN'T SELL IT. Please take a look at the big picture and realize that none of that had anything to do with the actual problem. Your money is worthless bro. That's the problem. You can't buy 1 USD with 1 Zimbabwe dollar. And your gold is worth less than a Zimbabwe dollar bro. Google how economies work and come back when you get it.

  • If the people who control the items control the price and make it higher than you can afford then they never get their money because they CAN'T SELL IT. Please take a look at the big picture and realize that none of that had anything to do with the actual problem. Your money is worthless bro. That's the problem. You can't buy 1 USD with 1 Zimbabwe dollar. And your gold is worth less than a Zimbabwe dollar bro. Google how economies work and come back when you get it.

    that's exactly what we are trying to sell we talk about rarity of items if i have an item that no one have i control the price then when i read most posts i see people talk about MO gold it's all about rarity but also about money sinks