The Economy: An appeal to reason

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  • If items could be afforded then more people would sell them. If more people sell them then more will be available thus removing their "rare" status. The reason more people can't sell them is because nobody can buy them with their zimbabwe gold. This is so simple dude why can't you see this

  • Rarity doesn't affect item price, except for extreme cases. The only items that are driven high in price due to rarity are things that are in high demand by one or more players. This is most commonly found in old costumes, because they're commonly bound, or taken out of the game due to players quitting as well as not having a SUPPLY of them, items that are CONSUMABLE (Not boosts, but things like sapheal souls of honor, which suck to farm and require many for 1 crafting operation), dominator certificates (Which noone farm), and galactic nuclei (Because there are extremely few of them in the game, and they're highly demanded). Prices of items like mclay, mfis, BACs, chisels, mallets and etc are being driven SKY HIGH because they're very USEFUL and because gold value is PLUMMETING, not because they're RARE (or rear, for those of us who cannot spell). These items ARE NOT rare. They are VALUABLE, and gold IS NOT, so people who choose to sell them want a LOT OF GOLD. Get it through your non-english speaking heads please, this is a crisis and Sanctum is suffering.


    In case you're wondering who this mysterious, intelligent XXX forum user is, I'm Xaryu, or Flow for those who've known me long enough.

  • You need to delete your posts faster bro. 80k is nothing to me. It's also nothing to most of the server. Because 80k is nothing. Just repost here so people can see how irrelevant it was

    it's not deleting it because i sent something wrong it's because i saw how useless talking to people like you so decided you end the conversation with you . 80 nothing for you but it is for other people

  • I think increasing the price of consumable items is not a good idea for most because we don't have that much gold.

    What might come to have is new consumable items for high-level players because for these it is easier to get gold, increase the price of teleportation and the cost of collecting the Sprite for example?

    Untradable Magic Alchemy Clay could be sold in an NPC...

    necroDie with honor at least. Fall by firing, Fall conjuring one last magic, no matter, as long as it is with honor.

  • I think increasing the price of consumable items is not a good idea for most because we don't have that much gold.

    What might come to have is new consumable items for high-level players because for these it is easier to get gold, increase the price of teleportation and the cost of collecting the Sprite for example?

    Untradable Magic Alchemy Clay could be sold in an NPC...

    I think this is one of the better ways of handling it, but I couldn't see Aeria agreeing to it being Magic Alchemy Clay

  • I think this is one of the better ways of handling it, but I couldn't see Aeria agreeing to it being Magic Alchemy Clay

    Much of her profit comes from this item so it's unlikely. I should have an entrepreneurial mind.

    What if the company fixed the item values? The said whose could force players to sell at the price suggested by the publisher.

    Ex: Tradable Magic Alchemy Clay - Suggested Price: 500 Gold

    necroDie with honor at least. Fall by firing, Fall conjuring one last magic, no matter, as long as it is with honor.

  • XXX Sorry to bother, but your last sentence is bugging the heck out of me. Could you please tell me what class/guild/server Flow was in? (I'm having fun nostalgia-tripping here. Doubt I knew you well, but could swear the name is familiar.)


    MoM If you don't mind, could I ask you a few questions?

    • Do you believe that gold has a value that can change? Or do you believe the value of gold is fixed?
    • What do you believe inflation is and what effects do you think it has?


    iGeneric Now that's a post. I'm kinda trying to go through it and type thoughts/ask questions as I do, so this may get a bit cluttered. First off, thanks for all the effort put into it. Now for manic shooter, bulletpointhell.


    Intro

    • Could you please explain how Darkshade's goals aim for a more socialist economy? Also, how would you look at communism/capitalism in a computer game (being a largely insulated virtual world where devs can control resources to such a greater extent than a government in reality)?
    • Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the problem you see that the rich people would not want the current situation to change?


    Obtaining Gold

    • When you said characters can easily solo dungeons, do you mean characters that have been playing a while, or have dungeons been severely nerfed? (Haven't played in about 2 years...) Or is this archive buffs?
    • So, lower MO rewards? Why would this be preferred over having an MO limit? Also, this plan seems geared specifically for players who create and run multiple accounts. What are your thoughts on those who cannot multilog?
    • The m-clay suggestion you made would set a lowest price on m-clay prices, not a cap. It would have no effect on keeping m-clay prices from rising, possibly having the reverse effect by decreasing supply. It would have very little effect on gold value outside of increasing inflation a bit by introducing more gold into the server. (You mentioned this coming up later, so my thoughts may change.)


    Goldsinks

    • ... While I agree that percentage based "taxing" of essentials can be an effective gold sink, this is also the kind of idea that makes player bases exceptionally bitter. Part of the issue is that, in reality, the reason for these services is required maintenance. Not only does this throw off comparison to real life examples, but it makes players feel like they are being unduly punished, that their work is not rewarded. Not that it can't be well implemented, but it's tough, especially if it's a service players are used to. Thoughts?
    • Don't have much else to say here. As others have said, gold sinks are good.


    Shifting Values

    • This is an interesting subject. By seeking to halt inflation, we are practically asking for an m-clay crash. However, this isn't the real world. Consequences will be a bit different. What consequences do you see in this happening?
    • Do you see gold and m-clay value as inversely proportional? If so, what would your solution be for a healthy economy?


    Thanks again for the post. It's a bit of a wall, but was fun enough going through in my own manner.

    The post was edited 3 times, last by KurysFlame: Attempt at clarifying while remaining readable (added spoiler/quotes). ().

  • Only one thing i am curious about, I haven't read all of the comments yet but... I do not understand why the main focus around the economy is based around the starting fact of the price of Magic Alchemy Clay does not seem like the best choice to discuss. You want the game to be less pay to win but discuss the main thing that is AP based which people spend and trade amongst the community which isn't really not pay to win if i'm perfectly honest. I understand if there is a general problem with the economy in the game but that should not be the way to go about discussing it, If you want to appeal to the entire community you shouldn't be sounding like someone who spends AP and want's the main currency that is used other than gold to be less expensive.

    Also to speak on the MO limits, I seen some people mention about people unable to find parties since so many people now just solo with 5 characters logged in to do so since they do not need to do final destination anymore. Which yes i understand there are people who can spam it a lot because they are able to do so, but for the people who are able to solo on one character that gold can help them so much, when they don't spend AP to get clay's or items to sell, that is enough gold to at least help them collect on sprites for gear, helping pay for the items for gear, weapons or even to help pay for forts to even get on par with all the AP spenders even if its only very slowly. Which can cause a big decrease in the smaller players who don't have tons of time to play the game due to school, work or even just because they are new to the game and are just trying to get used to it but getting rid of stuff like that completely could deplete a lot of those people. Small changes like at first re adding the final destination to alleviate some of the people making multiple characters that are not geared simply just for the extra gold, small changes are a lot better than drastic changes to the game and the economy. If you make too many drastic changes the consequences could be too drastic all at once, you could lose more people than it will end up being worth, considering the past issues a lot of people have had with the game and its changes. The changes in the population over the years, its not hard to see, i for one have been playing this game over 6 years now along with a lot of the community that still sticks around in this game, there has been times in the past that changes have caused a lot of people to end up leaving the game, some have returned and some have not.

    In conclusion there is a lot in the game that needs to be changed and have a long think about along with speaking to the community on their opinions on what could be changed and what can be improved in game play along with a lot of other things, rather than being told what a GS thinks is wrong and then asking for people with "An appeal to reason". There is a lot of other things that need to be discussed rather than an AP item, things that change game play, how we farm for our items and gear.. Stuff that impact how we play and work on our characters, yes gold is also a part of that but the only part of gold that NEEDS to be in game play for the base of it, is our skills, crafting talents, sprite collecting and crafting and so on. There is a lot to do with game play and farming that needs a lot of work to make people want to farm more and allow gold to be spent a lot better, things like afk farming rose a lot of the prices which doesn't seem to be an issue because it has nothing to do with AP. I do not disagree with the afk farming, but if farming was less of an issue, it doesn't needs to be super easy but it doesn't have to take as long as it does get everything we need for a character, I'm one of the people who does the REP that is needed and farms the talents from the cities among many other things. But even then, i cant farm gold because i'm so busy working on everything else, while everyone who has AP and can get gold so easily can just buy everything they need from other AP buyers which still puts my characters so far behind them even when i have spent so many months and longer working on my character to make it good. There is a lot of other people in this game other than AP spenders, there is people who have school or not enough time to play this game, but still want to make a character good enough and sometimes they are just unable to level without it taking hours which just isn't as fun when it's taking so long just to get one character good enough that it just isn't as fun. I have grinded many days upon days working on characters on levelling, masteries, or set mastery along with many other things, I end up stopping playing for so long just because i just don't find it fun anymore which i'm sure a lot of people feel the same way at times, especially for new players who are still learning.

    My point to all this is, yes i understand things need to change but you are going about things the wrong way and you need to appeal more to the community on what needs to be done rather than force what you think needs to be done on the community, I have even seen you posting broadcasts on the game just to get people to come look at this. Sadly most people don't care enough to comment because they don't see it as an issue and that might be because your approach to trying to solve this issue, I think you need to take a better approach to trying to fix this rather than doing what you have been doing already. Also the fact that i'm sure there is people who do not like the new forum and do not wish to end up using it, even i only started using it mostly because I needed to make my point about this post against how you are trying to go about this. If people think against what i say that is fine, I completely understand. Everyone has a right to their opinion on the matter, but i think everyone in the community needs to have a say before you even think about making a decision, although if it is anything like in the past when the community was asked what they wanted and the majority votes was completely ignored and the CM's and company did what they wanted to do anyway.

    Have a nice day.

  • MummyMeow I think you have greatly misunderstood my reasoning for choosing Magic Alchemy Clay as an example; and that was purely to cite a commonly desired item that everybody knows has spiked in price.

    It has a very popular appeal.


    The title 'Appeal to reason' is directed towards players in an encouragement to side with empirical data, and had nothing to do with the spending of AP, or AP at all.


    The only time AP has been directly cited in my posts is using it as a comparison to gold value, as it is easily one of the most stable 'items' in the game, and its value in gold directly reflects the effects of inflation in our economy.

  • I understand in that aspect why you did it, but I think you need to appeal to ALL the community rather than just that side of the community, there is a large amount of the community that does not trade in clay simply because they do not have enough clay to do so. I see people trading in clay simply because items are worth so much more than capped gold is, so clay ends up being the best option for the large AP spenders who have hundreds of clay to spend and trade. The "Appeal to reason" Was the wrong approach because you make it seem like the community is unreasonable, so you are trying to appeal to any reason that there is, to try to get people to see your side and only your side rather than trying to approach a conversation to discuss ways the community can suggest to help this issue. Show your data and the issues that is happening, show when this has happened and what you think has caused the issues, ask the community what they think could be a good idea to solve this, say you have some ideas yourself but since honestly its a big thing. It impacts the community a lot and any changes of course is going to impact their game play and what they do in the game, It should be our choice as well if you are trying to reach out to us to give us what you think needs to be done. It doesn't give much room for a lot of people to actually warrant wanting to state what they think is the best way to move forward with the issue. Your only comment against what i said seems to be in defence to my comment about your AP comparison, you did not seem to take anything else into account that was said about things that need to be changed and ways to do it even if i didn't state too many ways i think that could be done since i had wrote so much already.

    You still seem to be appealing too much towards the economy that is based around AP spenders, more specifically long running AP spenders who know a lot more about the clay economy than others and want to make the most out of the clay they buy with their money. I know many AP spenders who have many characters with multiple alts with capped gold that they have no use for until something new comes along or a new character they have so they can simply spend that, then sell more clay or items to get that gold back again easily. AP spenders make up a large portion of the community, they set the pace for the rest of the player base in PVP, GVG and so on with their gear and items, forts, stones and so on. But because of this reason a lot of people tend to forget the rest of the player base in the game, they forget about the new players, they forget about long running non AP spenders who are trying to make their way through the game and enjoy it, to enjoy PVP and GVG without getting one shot by a fully kitted our character. More specifically by the Mech and Explorer classes but that is a whole different story right there.

    I understand why you wanted to respond when you did, but you did not take the time to at least respond to everything that was said, rather than just the AP part. That wasn't the key focus to my post and you seem to have skipped over over 70% of my post, i'd appreciate it, if you want to comment on my post then please take the time to comment to it rather than only comment to what you want to defend against.

    Thank you.

  • MummyMeow I see no problem with Darkshade’s response. Your original post may have had content beyond your issue of associating the problem with AP, but it was all linked to that issue. Darkshade explained that the issue here is gold, and AP is only used as a tool for measurement.


    Clay is merely one item effected by inflation. Would it be better if Darkshade also brought up other items, like SKBs? When I played, I was essentially f2p (bought AP once, for marriage). The effects of inflation were very much visible with prices of many items vital to progression continually rising. From the information Darkshade provided, this trend seems to have continued. I definitely agree that all players need to be taken into account in looking for a solution. However, this is definitely an issue effecting every player.


    Please correct me if I’m wrong. The topic of this thread is inflation, causing the value of gold to drop. Your position is that the topic of this thread, inflation, has little impact on f2p players? If so, I’d argue against that assumption. As you stated earlier, AP spenders set the pace. To do even moderately decently, gear, items, forts, etc. are required. This costs gold. The way things are going, a f2p player will need more and more MO runs to just to afford a tiny fraction of what they need.


    Perhaps you dislike the solutions mentioned. If so, please contribute what you think would be a better plan. This thread is all about discussion. But seeing this as not a problem for everyone is a misunderstanding.

  • Just going to point out here that this thread is for all the community already whether you are a free player or not. It affects free players even moreso and that is why we need this in place to give them the best experience Ingame.


    Think about it logistically; even if things inflated significantly it wouldn’t impact people who pay as much because there will always be a way to get what they want aka AP. It’s the free players who are affected the most.


    Secondly using Magic Alchemy Clays as the standard is the best option we have to measure the state of the economy. Saying it’s not a good measure of an item to use and then not providing a better alternative does not help in finding a solution.


    Lastly this thread isn’t limited to just the ideas presented in the OT, they are asking for ideas. It would be advised to read the original post again.

  • MummyMeow

    Let me try and clear up some misunderstandings here:

    You seem to be under the impression that there was some ill-intent behind both my post and the replies.


    First I'd like to note that I responded to your initial post in the way that I did because I lacked the time to give it a more detailed reply, not because I was picking and choosing your words in an attempt to ignore the other concerns you brought forward, however it was important to establish the reasons why I made it first, and address the misunderstandings before further conversation could be had.


    I used Magic Alchemy Clay in my example due to their popularity and being a commodity that everyone is familiar with.

    My post in particular is not addressed towards players who spend AP, which I had hoped would be somewhat self-evident when the players who buy Magic Alchemy Clays are not the AP spenders who purchase it to begin with: they are standard players.


    While I fully understand that many players make gold through dungeons and running them via the use of multiple accounts, this is causing problems for the game and its economy - something I've pointed out and explained in full in the thread.

    To disregard this altogether when the numbers are very clear is unreasonable (Which is not something I am suggesting you are doing) - because it becomes more about personal gain than it does about longevity and economic health for everyone.

    However, the "Appeal to Reason" was not an implication that the community was unreasonable, but in fact quite the opposite:

    As I said in the first post of this thread, I have raised these issues to the Grand Fantasia team and was told that the communities response to these changes may be a deciding factor.

    The appeal to reason itself was directed towards the community, implying that the players would be more inclined to lean towards a reasonable outcome than perhaps had first been suspected.

    With a suspected lack support from the community being the primary reason for potentially not making these changes, this thread was created as an appeal.


    This thread is not about what I think - it's about presenting the data, and after much research what the data shows is fairly clear; That unlimited Mission Orders and the ability to run dungeons on multiple accounts is causing gold to inflate and the prices of items to increase.

    This is not something that exclusively affects AP spenders, nor have I addressed them specifically - it affects absolutely everybody, and affects non-paying players the most.

    It is also about providing the community with the opportunity to have their say and give ideas about sinking gold and perhaps potential alternatives to solutions to the ones provided, with the relevant information to hand.


    Separating myself from this entirely, I am just the mouthpiece to provide the required information (Which a lot of research went into, sources provided in the thread) to the community and the Grand Fantasia team.

    That's why I opened this thread, so that everyone does have the right to give their opinion on the matter.


    I agree that unfortunately there are many players who don't use the new forums, however there are few platforms that Grand Fantasia provides that allow you to post content that does not disappear over time (examples of this would be Discord and the in-game chat).

    The forum allows everyone to come and view peoples points at any given time, and can read through each page and the initial post with all the required information and sources at their leisure - including our own Product Manager.

    I have appealed to players on many other platforms, directing them towards this one.


    Of course I share your concern about losing players to such changes, but that is again why this thread was created and why I spent time making a video explaining the information in an easy-to-digest manner.

    Many players would also be lost over time as gold continues to inflate and non-paying players are required to do more and more dungeon runs in attempt to keep up.


    A lot of your concern seems to stem from the idea that players who run dungeons to make gold will be put at a disadvantage, because they will no longer be able to a decent amount of gold.

    It's a completely valid concern, but it's also a misunderstanding of what the consequences of inflation are.


    I shall quote a previous response I'd made a page back:


    These players are not being disregarded at all, and this thread is an open invitation to them and anyone else - however they benefit from these changes too, arguably more than any other group of players.


    It really these players that decide the value of gold, whether it be unintentional or not.

  • Regardless of either opinion a drop in cost alone is not going to fix the economy. Sure AP/Item/Gold ratio can be compared to prices (AP->Items-><-Gold) in the game from past dates, but was it truly easy to claim such items then at lower prices either? Items and golds value will always reflect. Dungeon runners will have a hard time regardless because people have out grown the difficulties of the dungeons and will rather solo them with alternate accounts, the final destination yes would help with this but for players who are to weak to run dungeons they will also still struggle to find a party. Its really a sad loose-loose situation. And Ofc having a AP shield and hoarding is a huge advantage, which is why a price drop isn't going to be enough. We need to work together as a community to find a solution that helps all players, yes this forum appears a little bias towards players who want the MO limit and yes even if Dark's opinion maybe supported by the information he gave(even if the supported data is factual) , however. all other opinion are welcome here and we need the mixture of opinions to find better solutions for our server in the future. I am choosing to stay unbaised for this topic because I want to leave it to the players to decide what they feel is best, however this is no vote or poll. This is a collection of opinions on how you the players feel about the current economy. There is no right or wrong answer,only ideas, feedback, or suggestions. All feedback positives or negatives need and MUST be heard. WE need an intervention to help keep the game going smoothly and we need to search all the possibilities.

  • Regardless of either opinion a drop in cost alone is not going to fix the economy. Sure AP/Item/Gold ratio can be compared to prices (AP->Items-><-Gold) in the game from past dates, but was it truly easy to claim such items then at lower prices either? Items and golds value will always reflect. Dungeon runners will have a hard time regardless because people have out grown the difficulties of the dungeons and will rather solo them with alternate accounts, the final destination yes would help with this but for players who are to weak to run dungeons they will also still struggle to find a party. Its really a sad loose-loose situation. And Ofc having a AP shield and hoarding is a huge advantage, which is why a price drop isn't going to be enough. We need to work together as a community to find a solution that helps all players, yes this forum appears a little bias towards players who want the MO limit and yes even if Dark's opinion maybe supported by the information he gave(even if the supported data is factual) , however. all other opinion are welcome here and we need the mixture of opinions to find better solutions for our server in the future. I am choosing to stay unbaised for this topic because I want to leave it to the players to decide what they feel is best, however this is no vote or poll. This is a collection of opinions on how you the players feel about the current economy. There is no right or wrong answer,only ideas, feedback, or suggestions. All feedback positives or negatives need and MUST be heard. WE need an intervention to help keep the game going smoothly and we need to search all the possibilities.

    can't agree more what you said and @KurysFlame and MoM is 90% true

  • To react on my thoughts @KurysFlame i will answer the questions. I have studied some Financial courses and my answers are based upon my knowledge i aquired during that. I am almost certain that an economy in the virtual world wouldnt always be the same as in the real world, but they wouldnt be completely different either.


    Intro


    • Could you please explain how Darkshade's goals aim for a more socialist economy? Also, how would you look at communism/capitalism in a computer game (being a largely insulated virtual world where devs can control resources to such a greater extent than a government in reality)?

    This wasn't per say an 'attack' on Dark his idea, I really hope we can get something that helps against the inflation we are dealing with as of now, but it is opting for a Socialist Economy. Unregulated markets are purely based upon achieving as much profit as you are able to. Basically, for the idea that gold has a certain standard, it needs to be regulated and THUS the market becomes socialistic. Gold as of now is some commodity ingame that everyone has and everyone can get and trade (e.g. Running Dungeons, Killing Mobs). For this commodity to be regulated it should get a certain (intrinsic) value. This is where you can for example say that a certain item such as <Magic Alchemy Clays> can be traded in for gold, which therefor will be regulated by a bigger party, Aeria Games. Hope you understand my thoughts about this?

    • Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the problem you see that the rich people would not want the current situation to change?

    The problem i see is that not ONLY the rich people wouldnt really want it, but also the common. The economy is a 'big something' that nobody really got a clue about, not even people who study it. We try and understand it, but in the end nobody can even grasph its workings. Therefor i think that without the right information about WHAT will influence something, there wont be any common ground reached where everyone would agree on a solution, implying that there only is 1 sulution here is wrong. Economy in the real world is even bigger than it is ingame, the one ingame can be understood till some degree. But still its a big blur. Everyone should want that the situation changes.


    Obtaining Gold


    • When you said characters can easily solo dungeons, do you mean characters that have been playing a while, or have dungeons been severely nerfed? (Haven't played in about 2 years...) Or is this archive buffs?

    Basically this whole game changed. When the game began, you actually needed a party to be able to do things, but due to several factors this all changed. Archive Buff, Nerfs and Buffs to everything, New Weapons, New Armor, basically everything. Almost every class is able to play alone, where dungeons were actually set out to be harder and in need of parties. So yeah, obtaining the same amount of gold that you have to put a lot of effort in a few years ago is becomming increasingly easier. This is a 2nd inflation that happens, not the inflation of monetairy units (i.g. Gold) but also the inflation of Time. Where a lot of things increase a persons Def stats, Speed stats and Attack Stats throughout the years, you can now do something faster alone than back in the day with 5. This is basically causing the 2nd inflation, the one Dark also talks about in his video. Hope you see what im getting at?

    • So, lower MO rewards? Why would this be preferred over having an MO limit? Also, this plan seems geared specifically for players who create and run multiple accounts. What are your thoughts on those who cannot multilog?

    Lowering MO rewards will affect people that Multilog but also the normal dungeon runners. Let me explain this with a real example. -When a person works at a factory that produces cars, and the person can make 1 car per day and gets paid $50 a day, that is basically him being paid for what he does and can do. Now after implementing certain improvements in the factory, such as the machines working faster, the worker can now make 2 cars per day. Does that mean the person should actually get double the amount of what he got before? - In the normal world you wouldnt get an increase in your wage that grows with production, but effort can make a difference. Therefor it is logical that people that are better make more money, but the amount they get now is just too high. There has been too many increases in Stats and basically production that there should be something holding it back, this would be a decrease in gold in this example.

    • The m-clay suggestion you made would set a lowest price on m-clay prices, not a cap. It would have no effect on keeping m-clay prices from rising, possibly having the reverse effect by decreasing supply. It would have very little effect on gold value outside of increasing inflation a bit by introducing more gold into the server. (You mentioned this coming up later, so my thoughts may change.)

    Basically what we are doing with Mclays is the same as with gold, we are overflowing the market without knowing exactly how much there is in the world. Eventually, people will find a new product that will replace Mclays or be a substitute for it, cause they will be worth soo much. At some point people do not want to spend on Mclays anymore. But when will it be, 2000g? 2500g? 3000g? Just see when the bubble explodes what will happen. A huge devaluation of items.



    Goldsinks


    • ... While I agree that percentage based "taxing" of essentials can be an effective gold sink, this is also the kind of idea that makes player bases exceptionally bitter. Part of the issue is that, in reality, the reason for these services is required maintenance. Not only does this throw off comparison to real life examples, but it makes players feel like they are being unduly punished, that their work is not rewarded. Not that it can't be well implemented, but it's tough, especially if it's a service players are used to. Thoughts?

    Every change there is going to be is hard, but not every change will affect all players evenly. If you would ask all players to delete 50% of their gold, this would be in essential a good thing, cause the amount of gold in the world shrinks and prices can therefor be divided by 50%. Even though this would never happen, there is a thought of making a tax. it can even be a monthly tax of like 1% gold per server maintenance. This way everyone would have less gold, and the amount of gold shrinks too. In essence, the effect would be the same if the MO Limits or Rewards are being cut, but that wouldnt change anything to the amount of gold there is. I really think the best things to do in order to achieve this, is or a public tax, or premium items that can be bought for a LOT of gold. Like occasionally Aeria would offer services for gold, for a couple of hours per day, unannounced ofcourse, so that gold CAN actually leave directly. All other approaches would give an indirect goldsink. Im not quite sure on what would be the best way to implement the indirect goldsinks, but a direct one seems pretty cool!

    • Don't have much else to say here. As others have said, gold sinks are good.

    Agreed.

  • Sorry for this extra, message could max be 10,000 characters, so i continue here KurysFlame


    Shifting Values


    • This is an interesting subject. By seeking to halt inflation, we are practically asking for an m-clay crash. However, this isn't the real world. Consequences will be a bit different. What consequences do you see in this happening?

    I think i explained this before too. But basically by our never ending demand for mclays there will be a point in time that the effort of gaining gold -and therefor implementing new gold into the worlds gold- cant sustain the demand for mclays -and therefor the rise of its price-. This would mean that eventually people wouldnt agree on a price for mclays (i.g. 5000gold) cause the value is never certain. Basically Mclays now are Money without intrinsic value. There is nobody backing its value and therefor trading in it is a huge gamble. I dont know if you or others agree with me, but the best thing for the economy would be a sustainable monetary trade unit that everyone wants to have, basically GOLD.

    • Do you see gold and m-clay value as inversely proportional? If so, what would your solution be for a healthy economy?

    As said before, there is NEVER just 1 solution to a healthy economy. As i dont think that i have all the answers for a healthy economy. I do think that gold and mclay are somehow linked, i dont think its inversely proportional tho, but a more complex formula to it might be applied to understand this. Since when the value of Gold decreases, the amount of gold needed for Mclays increases. But otherway around too, when there is more demand for mclays (for example cause of trading items above 99k) the price of Mclays increases too. A way to change this would be, either make it so that there isnt enough substitute items to replace money for, but however... this can never be the case. Or secondly, controll the flows of money and mclays. Give a certain base price for Mclays and decrease the amount of gold into the server. As said before i really think this could be achieved easily. Cause when you make Mclays available at the General Store Owner for 1000g, then everyone knows that Mclays are 1000g. Selling them for 1500g wouldnt make any sense, cause people can get them for less ingame. Also this would give you an estimated guess of what your REAL LIFE MONEY is worth, since you now know that AP is worth a certain amount of gold (i.g. mclays that are worth 1000g). I would even suggest that selling AP cards isnt something that was per se 'bad' for the ingame economy as it wasnt bad for Aeria itself too, but this is a whole other discussion. Giving things value is something that would make the economy sustainable. cause eventually you cant trade in all your money for Mclay cause you need money for ingame factors too. But it will create a huge sinkhole, and as a matter of fact, the first months there might be an overflow of Mclays too, and maybe items too. But in the long run... there would be way less gold and a far better economy. Let me know your thoughts on this.



  • i haven't read the whole thread, but reading a few of the first posts, i have a few things to add, the economy is bad not because of the gold generated, the real imbalance here is between gold generated vs items generated (via aeria points).


    what's causing this imbalance is mainly gold selling websites, because for one, a huge part of the community is buying from them instead of buying aeria points to generate items, and for two, those websites, and gold selling in general, gives incentive to players who have the time to farm or skill to make a bot, to abuse the mission orders way above what they need, now i'm not saying that mission orders wont be as farmed if the gold selling stoped, but i can assure you gold generated will drop by an insane amount because people who farm dungeons would want to enjoy the game at some points, especially when they have no incentive for farming obsene amounts of gold.


    Now i know what you're thinking, on your servers you saw the problem increase when they removed the limit, but i'm from the french server, and we never had any limit on mission orders (maybe for a very short time 3 years ago), and i can tell you for a fact that the problem of inflation only started when gold buying became the norm. i do agree with you that we need a few gold sinks, but here is the problem, if you put a limit on mission orders and make the gold amounts on the servers decrease drastically, while the people who normally would buy APs still would rather buy gold directly instead because they find it more appealing, you'd still have the same problem. the items certainly won't be as expensive as now, but they would still be too expensive for the amounts of gold circling around, you wouldn't have solved the problem, you'd only have changed the scale of it all, but all the ratios would stay the same.


    If you want to fix the economy, you need to take the botting issue and the gold selling more seriously, as long as aeria doesn't do much about that, any other steps taken would be pointless in the long run. we need a crackdown on dubious transfers of huge amounts of gold, and maybe GMs could try to buy from a few gold sellers so they can have a few leads, and investigate further how they get their gold, who they get it from, what are all there characters/accounts/ips/patterns.

  • ofcourse not, but it's a bit more pbvious when it's you, both accounts would have a lot of common patterns in their logged history, the most obvious one being the ip adress, plus, when you don't sell gold, your trading and mailing history won't have huge amounts transfers to a bunch of random accountsevery few days, instead, it''ll have transfers to very few characters, mainly yours, and maybe even a few friends.

  • i haven't read the whole thread, but reading a few of the first posts, i have a few things to add, the economy is bad not because of the gold generated, the real imbalance here is between gold generated vs items generated (via aeria points).

    You should, because you're missing out on a fair bit of information.

    what's causing this imbalance is mainly gold selling websites, because for one, a huge part of the community is buying from them instead of buying aeria points to generate items, and for two, those websites, and gold selling in general, gives incentive to players who have the time to farm or skill to make a bot, to abuse the mission orders way above what they need, now i'm not saying that mission orders wont be as farmed if the gold selling stoped, but i can assure you gold generated will drop by an insane amount because people who farm dungeons would want to enjoy the game at some points, especially when they have no incentive for farming obsene amounts of gold.

    While I agree that gold sellers are a problem, I think you overestimate the amount of gold being generated by sellers exclusively.


    I'm sure the amount is notable, but only focusing on these gold sellers and just hedging your bets on the fact that 'regular players' won't be inclined to farm so much gold (not everybody spends AP - In fact I imagine most people generating gold don't), is frankly unrealistic.


    Now i know what you're thinking, on your servers you saw the problem increase when they removed the limit, but i'm from the french server, and we never had any limit on mission orders (maybe for a very short time 3 years ago), and i can tell you for a fact that the problem of inflation only started when gold buying became the norm. i do agree with you that we need a few gold sinks, but here is the problem, if you put a limit on mission orders and make the gold amounts on the servers decrease drastically, while the people who normally would buy APs still would rather buy gold directly instead because they find it more appealing, you'd still have the same problem. the items certainly won't be as expensive as now, but they would still be too expensive for the amounts of gold circling around, you wouldn't have solved the problem, you'd only have changed the scale of it all, but all the ratios would stay the same.

    I'd like to see some actual statistics for your claim that inflation did not occur until gold buying became the norm - because I don't believe it; plus, I'm not sure how you'd even begin to measure such a thing without having access to something like Aeria's ban records.


    And, even if that were the case, how do you think the gold sellers are managing to generate so much of it?


    As I explained in the rest of the thread (The bit you did not read), putting MO limits back to where they were and introducing Final Destination back into the equation only fixes the influx - from that point on onwards you have to focus on introducing effective sinks to remove the excess gold.


    If you want to fix the economy, you need to take the botting issue and the gold selling more seriously, as long as aeria doesn't do much about that, any other steps taken would be pointless in the long run. we need a crackdown on dubious transfers of huge amounts of gold, and maybe GMs could try to buy from a few gold sellers so they can have a few leads, and investigate further how they get their gold, who they get it from, what are all there characters/accounts/ips/patterns.

    I do agree that such issues need to be taken seriously - but in all honesty your post seems like a large amount of wishful thinking/scapegoating in an attempt to avoid fixing the obvious influx problem. The fact is, whether you attribute the influx to sellers or to players, the fact that so much gold can be generated in comparison to other generation methods is a problem.


    Other steps (such as the ones presented in this thread) wouldn't be pointless - because if they were introduced they would prevent from being able to farm so much in such a short period of time.


    Fix the fact that so much gold can be generated in the first place via these dungeons, and not only will it fix the influx of gold being brought in, but it will discourage sellers from trying.


    Relying on peoples good will and hoping that they just "won't farm lots of gold" even (or perhaps, especially) if you get rid of sellers is naive.


    I don't buy into the narrative that the only people generating this much gold are gold sellers - and if I did, I'd ask the question "Then why not put limitations in place anyway, as it is largely only going to affect them?".

  • you miss the point, but to make things clear, i don't have access to aeria statistics, but there is no wishful thinking involved, i can tell you where i'm getting this from, i'm a very active member of the french community, and the problem started when a certain website became very known in here a few years back, a lot of players were admitting openly in private groups on facebook and on discord that they were buying from it, most of these players were those who before then, used to buy aeria points, and it's very easy to assess this.


    in the soon to be 10 years that the french server existed, we had a limit on mission orders for about a month or so in 2014 or 2015 i can't rememver anymore. but the problem only was visible 3 times, the first time there was some bug in the game that a few players abused to generate gold, it was back in 2012 i think, the second time was 3 years ago, when a certain website was selling gold for very cheap and that was when everybody started buying from it and people were admitting to that left and right (you could also see the number of GM wish drop drastically at that time on our server, you couldn't find one to save your life), then something happend, and the site didn't have its source of gold anymore i supposed, so their price for gold increased 4 or 5 times, that was when prices in the game stabilized as more people bought AP than gold (as i said i know that from my community, we have private facebook groups, private discord servers etc, so almost everything is on the open), and when i say stabilized, the MClay droped from 1000 gold to 200-250 overnight, it in the span of a week or so and it was 2 and a half years ago, but recently that same website droped their prices to almost their initial very cheap price, and now most players buy from it directly, and you can see that by the prices of MClays that reached 800 gold and more right now because more gold was generated than items.


    So to make this short, i agree that we need a few gold sinks, and i myself don't farm, as i don't have the time for that, so no, i'm not opposed to limiting mission orders for any other reason than the fact that not much would change, at least on our server. as i said, as long as there is incentive to farm in order to sell the gold, and as long as people have an incentive to buy gold instead of items via AP, the problem would persist, the prices would maybe drop, but the ratios would be the same, and the difficulty level to get items would stay similar to now due the slim amount of items generated



    PS: i know i don't have any statistics i can give, only aeria has access to that, but what i see in the community is very representative, also, i knew a few guys who used to sell gold to websites/other players, so i had a rough estimate about the amount of gold being sold every month. and when the gold selling droped back then, you saw the amount of people on private groups trying to find someone to sell gold to them, and when they didn't they went on to buy APs, and you could see that too by them selling Mclays or other items.

  • i want also to add, that in at least one of those 3 big inflation periods on the french server, the number of active farming groups actually went down , and you could prove that further beyond what i observed by checking the "palmares", i don't know what it's called on the US server, but it's the scoreboard where you could see the ranking of players based on their participation in events, in dungeons, in quests etc, and you could see the points accumulated by killing dungeon's bosses, and based on that you could see that the farming went down by a huge margin while the inflation hit its peek, so that's how i actually arrived to the conclusion that it's not the gold generated IG that made the difference in inflation periods.



  • Let's for a second assume that everything you're saying is right.

    Where do you think the gold that the sellers obtain is coming from?


    It's a rhetorical question, because it comes from dungeons.

    And I've laid this out in full in the first post of the thread - it's the largest source of gold generation in the game by a very large margin.


    So, even if you're right about the inflation being purely due to sellers:


    Quote

    so no, i'm not opposed to limiting mission orders for any other reason than the fact that not much would change, at least on our server.


    This is objectively incorrect, as it would have a significant change on their ability to obtain and sell gold.


    This is not directed at you in particular but I really dislike this "Our server does this and it's very different" nonsense; we all play the same game, with largely the same mechanics, and in this case the methods of gold generation / gold sinks are exactly the same.


    We all have the same problem - and that's large amounts of gold being generated in comparison to how much is being sunk, due to the lack of MO limits/FD.