Posts by Darkshade

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    What's the point of it?:rolleyes:


    To help prevent bot abuse.

    And the requirement for inputting the captcha for each character will have been put there to prevent bots from being able to switch characters on the same account for different purposes.

    How does banning peoples accounts help the economy? It just basically forces people to start a new account and start with nothing.

    To be fair, nobody was claiming that it does.

    However, I am about to semi-make that claim, with a little bit of an explanation:

    By banning peoples accounts (who have broken the rules by gold buying/selling) and removing that gold from their characters, you effectively manually sink portions of it, allowing the gold to deflate a little bit (assuming you're taking away more than is coming in).

    However, it's ultimately pointless endeavor if you don't fix the gold influx alongside it, and it's not a good way to sink gold overall anyway, as it's unlikely that all or even a significant amount of the inflated gold is tied purely to players who buy or sell gold illegally .

    All of that aside, people should get banned for breaking the rules, for obvious reasons.


    I'll round this comment off by saying that I am making no statement on the validity of your character bans (as I understand you currently have a ban appeal thread open), and is purely an observation on the general state of things.

    To me sounds like bad economy mean Aeria is getting more money, since no one will play this game in a healthy way without cash.

    With that in mind, what in the world will make Aeria "fix" the economy?

    It's company business. Make high possible amount of money with small investment.

    Well, Aeria's business model is a fairly standard Free-To-Play model, although fairly aggressive.

    While this model is capable of surviving on small regular payments from many players, the big money comes from players typically known as 'whales'.

    These are the players that drop significant amounts of money at a time, and therefore the ones that Aeria will want to keep around.

    The previously mentioned players who only spend little bits at a time may benefit from the AP:Gold ratio, but not enough to stay ahead of the curb.


    This means that unless they spend more (which is not an option most people will go for), they're going to feel the effects of inflation too.

    As the gold continues to inflate non-spenders will pretty much leave entirely, followed by the players who spend smaller amounts.

    There will of course be exceptions to this, but generally speaking most players will leave as they begin to realize their efforts are largely in vain and [a majority of] players will either be required to put in more effort or more money in to be able to keep up with the gold required to effectively play their character.

    This leaves the whales, who don't really care at all, because their survival and ability to keep up was always dependent on how much money they threw at the game.

    Unfortunately for Aeria however, one of the largest incentives (whether it be direct or indirect) for these whales to spend on the game is to become more powerful or have nicer things than other players who do not (or at least don't to the same degree).

    But guess what? Most of them have left now.


    So eventually they will leave too, and you're left with a dead husk of a game and very little in the form of income.


    That's why they'd fix the economy - but unfortunately Aeria's track record suggests that they don't much dwell on the long-term.

    hello.. hope im not too late.. like everybody I feel the need to add my 2 cents so..

    I always believed moving forward was best but in the case of grand fantasia I think we may need to move back... takea couple notes from when the game was thriving and implement it in the now.. one thing I read that ringed my ear a bit " AP buyers control the economy" where ad that is true ..it shouldn't be.. problem is everything now is attainable through the purchase of points.. I propose limiting that.. go back to when it was only a fancy costume and the clay tables were attractive but not OPd make people play the game and not buy the game.. control the AP buyers and you control the economy:/

    You're not late by any means, we've seen no economic changes at all.

    Introducing these items wouldn't be a positive for the value of the items involved or the game overall - stone prices would decrease as the demand goes down.

    Less stones get sunk so supply increases.


    Less demand and more supply = decreased value over time, likely well past the point where it is in any way healthy.


    The equipment disappearing is an attempt at balance, but it doesn't really matter at all when those items are very likely bound anyway and therefore out of the market altogether.

    Let's for a second assume that everything you're saying is right.

    Where do you think the gold that the sellers obtain is coming from?


    It's a rhetorical question, because it comes from dungeons.

    And I've laid this out in full in the first post of the thread - it's the largest source of gold generation in the game by a very large margin.


    So, even if you're right about the inflation being purely due to sellers:


    Quote

    so no, i'm not opposed to limiting mission orders for any other reason than the fact that not much would change, at least on our server.


    This is objectively incorrect, as it would have a significant change on their ability to obtain and sell gold.


    This is not directed at you in particular but I really dislike this "Our server does this and it's very different" nonsense; we all play the same game, with largely the same mechanics, and in this case the methods of gold generation / gold sinks are exactly the same.


    We all have the same problem - and that's large amounts of gold being generated in comparison to how much is being sunk, due to the lack of MO limits/FD.

    i haven't read the whole thread, but reading a few of the first posts, i have a few things to add, the economy is bad not because of the gold generated, the real imbalance here is between gold generated vs items generated (via aeria points).

    You should, because you're missing out on a fair bit of information.

    what's causing this imbalance is mainly gold selling websites, because for one, a huge part of the community is buying from them instead of buying aeria points to generate items, and for two, those websites, and gold selling in general, gives incentive to players who have the time to farm or skill to make a bot, to abuse the mission orders way above what they need, now i'm not saying that mission orders wont be as farmed if the gold selling stoped, but i can assure you gold generated will drop by an insane amount because people who farm dungeons would want to enjoy the game at some points, especially when they have no incentive for farming obsene amounts of gold.

    While I agree that gold sellers are a problem, I think you overestimate the amount of gold being generated by sellers exclusively.


    I'm sure the amount is notable, but only focusing on these gold sellers and just hedging your bets on the fact that 'regular players' won't be inclined to farm so much gold (not everybody spends AP - In fact I imagine most people generating gold don't), is frankly unrealistic.


    Now i know what you're thinking, on your servers you saw the problem increase when they removed the limit, but i'm from the french server, and we never had any limit on mission orders (maybe for a very short time 3 years ago), and i can tell you for a fact that the problem of inflation only started when gold buying became the norm. i do agree with you that we need a few gold sinks, but here is the problem, if you put a limit on mission orders and make the gold amounts on the servers decrease drastically, while the people who normally would buy APs still would rather buy gold directly instead because they find it more appealing, you'd still have the same problem. the items certainly won't be as expensive as now, but they would still be too expensive for the amounts of gold circling around, you wouldn't have solved the problem, you'd only have changed the scale of it all, but all the ratios would stay the same.

    I'd like to see some actual statistics for your claim that inflation did not occur until gold buying became the norm - because I don't believe it; plus, I'm not sure how you'd even begin to measure such a thing without having access to something like Aeria's ban records.


    And, even if that were the case, how do you think the gold sellers are managing to generate so much of it?


    As I explained in the rest of the thread (The bit you did not read), putting MO limits back to where they were and introducing Final Destination back into the equation only fixes the influx - from that point on onwards you have to focus on introducing effective sinks to remove the excess gold.


    If you want to fix the economy, you need to take the botting issue and the gold selling more seriously, as long as aeria doesn't do much about that, any other steps taken would be pointless in the long run. we need a crackdown on dubious transfers of huge amounts of gold, and maybe GMs could try to buy from a few gold sellers so they can have a few leads, and investigate further how they get their gold, who they get it from, what are all there characters/accounts/ips/patterns.

    I do agree that such issues need to be taken seriously - but in all honesty your post seems like a large amount of wishful thinking/scapegoating in an attempt to avoid fixing the obvious influx problem. The fact is, whether you attribute the influx to sellers or to players, the fact that so much gold can be generated in comparison to other generation methods is a problem.


    Other steps (such as the ones presented in this thread) wouldn't be pointless - because if they were introduced they would prevent from being able to farm so much in such a short period of time.


    Fix the fact that so much gold can be generated in the first place via these dungeons, and not only will it fix the influx of gold being brought in, but it will discourage sellers from trying.


    Relying on peoples good will and hoping that they just "won't farm lots of gold" even (or perhaps, especially) if you get rid of sellers is naive.


    I don't buy into the narrative that the only people generating this much gold are gold sellers - and if I did, I'd ask the question "Then why not put limitations in place anyway, as it is largely only going to affect them?".

    MummyMeow

    Let me try and clear up some misunderstandings here:

    You seem to be under the impression that there was some ill-intent behind both my post and the replies.


    First I'd like to note that I responded to your initial post in the way that I did because I lacked the time to give it a more detailed reply, not because I was picking and choosing your words in an attempt to ignore the other concerns you brought forward, however it was important to establish the reasons why I made it first, and address the misunderstandings before further conversation could be had.


    I used Magic Alchemy Clay in my example due to their popularity and being a commodity that everyone is familiar with.

    My post in particular is not addressed towards players who spend AP, which I had hoped would be somewhat self-evident when the players who buy Magic Alchemy Clays are not the AP spenders who purchase it to begin with: they are standard players.


    While I fully understand that many players make gold through dungeons and running them via the use of multiple accounts, this is causing problems for the game and its economy - something I've pointed out and explained in full in the thread.

    To disregard this altogether when the numbers are very clear is unreasonable (Which is not something I am suggesting you are doing) - because it becomes more about personal gain than it does about longevity and economic health for everyone.

    However, the "Appeal to Reason" was not an implication that the community was unreasonable, but in fact quite the opposite:

    As I said in the first post of this thread, I have raised these issues to the Grand Fantasia team and was told that the communities response to these changes may be a deciding factor.

    The appeal to reason itself was directed towards the community, implying that the players would be more inclined to lean towards a reasonable outcome than perhaps had first been suspected.

    With a suspected lack support from the community being the primary reason for potentially not making these changes, this thread was created as an appeal.


    This thread is not about what I think - it's about presenting the data, and after much research what the data shows is fairly clear; That unlimited Mission Orders and the ability to run dungeons on multiple accounts is causing gold to inflate and the prices of items to increase.

    This is not something that exclusively affects AP spenders, nor have I addressed them specifically - it affects absolutely everybody, and affects non-paying players the most.

    It is also about providing the community with the opportunity to have their say and give ideas about sinking gold and perhaps potential alternatives to solutions to the ones provided, with the relevant information to hand.


    Separating myself from this entirely, I am just the mouthpiece to provide the required information (Which a lot of research went into, sources provided in the thread) to the community and the Grand Fantasia team.

    That's why I opened this thread, so that everyone does have the right to give their opinion on the matter.


    I agree that unfortunately there are many players who don't use the new forums, however there are few platforms that Grand Fantasia provides that allow you to post content that does not disappear over time (examples of this would be Discord and the in-game chat).

    The forum allows everyone to come and view peoples points at any given time, and can read through each page and the initial post with all the required information and sources at their leisure - including our own Product Manager.

    I have appealed to players on many other platforms, directing them towards this one.


    Of course I share your concern about losing players to such changes, but that is again why this thread was created and why I spent time making a video explaining the information in an easy-to-digest manner.

    Many players would also be lost over time as gold continues to inflate and non-paying players are required to do more and more dungeon runs in attempt to keep up.


    A lot of your concern seems to stem from the idea that players who run dungeons to make gold will be put at a disadvantage, because they will no longer be able to a decent amount of gold.

    It's a completely valid concern, but it's also a misunderstanding of what the consequences of inflation are.


    I shall quote a previous response I'd made a page back:


    These players are not being disregarded at all, and this thread is an open invitation to them and anyone else - however they benefit from these changes too, arguably more than any other group of players.


    It really these players that decide the value of gold, whether it be unintentional or not.

    MummyMeow I think you have greatly misunderstood my reasoning for choosing Magic Alchemy Clay as an example; and that was purely to cite a commonly desired item that everybody knows has spiked in price.

    It has a very popular appeal.


    The title 'Appeal to reason' is directed towards players in an encouragement to side with empirical data, and had nothing to do with the spending of AP, or AP at all.


    The only time AP has been directly cited in my posts is using it as a comparison to gold value, as it is easily one of the most stable 'items' in the game, and its value in gold directly reflects the effects of inflation in our economy.

    I think increasing the price of consumable items is not a good idea for most because we don't have that much gold.

    What might come to have is new consumable items for high-level players because for these it is easier to get gold, increase the price of teleportation and the cost of collecting the Sprite for example?

    Untradable Magic Alchemy Clay could be sold in an NPC...

    I think this is one of the better ways of handling it, but I couldn't see Aeria agreeing to it being Magic Alchemy Clay

    i saw the vido 2 times btw i didnt see AP in it its just talking abut economy in genral


    I'm not going to continue communication with you ether becose its seems that you are tryint to Ignore everything everyone saying and force your opinon on others



    I've linked you the part of the video which covers the relation of AP Card value to influx of gold on the server.


    It starts at 2:34 and ends at 3:34, consisting of a whole minute of the video, which comes in at just under 25% of it.


    Which one of us is ignoring things here?



    when your response geting limited and you got nothing eals to say

    You can believe it's because I've got nothing else to say if you want to, but wouldn't that be rather odd of me as someone who spent time making a 4 and a half minute video and a very lengthy thread explaining the causes and effects?


    The reason I'm limiting my responses to you is because I don't wish to waste my time explaining things to somebody who is not willing to sit down and read the information.

    I've been referencing AP since the first post of this thread, and the line graph depicts the value of gold in relation to AP when AP selling was allowed.


    I'm not going to continue communication with someone who is not willing to read the provided information before taking the time to make a response.


    Once you've taken the time to read the information provided and watch the video (which I made specifically for those who lack the time to read everything in depth), I'm more than happy to pick this conversation up again.


    tl;dr


    cap dungeon runs with MOs. the intent of the game isnt to be able buy an mfi after 1 day of running PT. People used to do literal thousands of PT, ACV, SMF (yes people used to run that dungeon), BFT, and FT runs over the course of years and years in order to build up their character SLOWLY. You're a complete imbecile if you think that a couple of players spending millions of gold on buying clays is the same as people running thousands of PT runs in a week. It's blatantly obvious that the problem is the fact that the people can run the same amount of dungeons in ONE DAY that used to take TWO HUNDRED DAYS or more.

    This is exactly correct, and is a great explanation of what I've been trying to explain to the poster above.

    As i said in my last post ! i read everything i know what you mean by gold inflation but do you know that the new players aren't that mush affecting the gold inflation since they only run with 1 account mostly ! what they do is :they buy PT they pay and they get like how mush? we say they get 70 Each run every 10 runs they 700 g you think that affect gold inflation? also 700 G in 10 runs.

    Then we find people that actually sell PT for gold are only using one Account , maybe 2 that fact mean that they probably lag or slow at the runs or something but what i wanna say is that most runners are slow it's like 4-5 min the good ones are like 3 min each run 10 runs = 700 G for the new players they need 7 hours to make 7 k gold , 7 k ?? you think this will affect the gold inflation ? no of course no

    You can just go AF K kasslow and you'll see people that have more than 5 million gold , how did i know ? ( WTB M-clays x5000 1.1 k EA ) WTB X1000 thos ones have the most gold in the server


    What you're doing is comparing the gold made via dungeon runs to gold made via other methods.

    And again, I will explain.

    Dungeon runs generate gold, more gold than anything else in the game by 94%.

    Generated gold is what causing inflation, not methods which involve trading already generated gold from one player to another.

    Using an arbitrary number such as 700g or 7k makes absolutely no difference, the value of that number is relative to the amount of gold on the server - if the gold sinks can't keep up with the influx in gold (thus causing it to rise over time), then yes, it will make a difference to inflation.


    And as I explained in the thread and above:


    Quote

    Once sufficient gold sinks are in place that are capable of removing the excess gold, the value of gold will increase. (Meaning less gold = worth more).

    This means that the prices of items will begin to return to being lower, and the players who are running dungeon to earn gold will be able to afford more items with less runs.

    I'm not sure how much more of an explanation I can give, especially when I've provided a chart showing the trend of gold inflation and the point at which it has spiked.

    I'm not talking about tho who has lvl 100's but still logging in with 5 chars to make gold in PR/BFR/FT ,
    But The ones i m talking about are thos new players that of course struggling to survive in this game since everything is expensive thos ones how do you think they'll get gather gold?

    So to give a brief explanation:

    The value of gold is determined by the amount of total gold available on the server.

    The total amount of gold on the server is permanently increasing due to the inflation caused by unlimited dungeon runs.

    Once sufficient gold sinks are in place that are capable of removing the excess gold, the value of gold will increase. (Meaning less gold = worth more).

    This means that the prices of items will begin to return to being lower, and the players who are running dungeon to earn gold will be able to afford more items with less runs.


    Right now however, due to inflation these players are required to run a large number of dungeons to even attempt to keep up with the players who are doing many runs and causing the gold to inflate and its value to decrease.


    I hope this explanation is sufficient.


    Second thing iwanna say is Going to as i said THE ONES THAT's reponsable of updates ans stuffs pleas pleas add more content to our game more archive updates more items more things and thanks !

    I guess you all read that : and my post will be probably deleted in few sec /min/hours idk so i will screen my post then Put in a new One


    Archive updates are in the works, but no promises can be made as to when they will be available.


    Okay, so if it's not the reason, I'd love to hear your explanation as to why the rise in the price of AP Cards is in direct correlation with the removal of Mission Order Limits and Final Destination, as shown by this graph:


    40ui0LQ.png


    Sources: https://0bin.net/paste/2FjsLSw…kU9b4FKCL-dFiUrxfs70CfzU5

    i did watch and read it. Just was saying. Don't people who took time to create their characters and put in time to do dungeons daily have a say to? I don't do dungeons for gold i have other ways to make gold. Im curious would there be a restriction on farming NC like someone i know does for hours?

    Of course they have a say, but the empirical data shows that it's a problem - and it actually benefits them to restrict the runs, since it would increase the value of gold, requiring them to do less runs.

    I'd also like to add that making 4 alternative characters and leveling them to 70~ish is something that's possible to do in the space of a weekend - and even if it were to take a long time, it wouldn't be a good enough reason to allow gold to continue to inflate at the rate at it is.

    To answer your question - no, because Nightmare Corridor doesn't generate gold, and if anything sinks it due to entry cost.


    As I've explained in the thread and in the video - these methods of getting gold do not matter to inflation.

    The methods do not generate gold, they only pass previously generated gold from one person to another.

    Inflation is due to the amount of extra gold being added to the server, and the gold being added is coming from dungeons by an incredibly large margin.


    That's where the hole needs to be plugged - all of the gold traded via these other methods you mention will scale with it.

    LOL Let people run dungeons as much as they want its their time wasted and also time to create characters for it.

    Did you actually take the time to watch the video or read the thread?

    Sure, you can let people run dungeons as much as they want - but it's your gold that gets devalued, not just theirs.

    I agree, but realistically would they be able to charge these prices and have people pay them if the gold on the server was not there to support such high selling/buying costs?

    What you've described is the reason that prices rise with inflation - and you're correct, but you have to look at the reasons they're behaving that way, and how they're able to get away with it.

    Its cool that you put so much effort into tryna help the economy and all but I'm not sure its a good idea to bring back MO limit / FD just because thats kinda the only way the lower geared players and some of the higher geared players make gold yanno? Even if it does fix things ( which it probably wont fix IMMEDIATELY ) lots of people still wont be able to afford things just because there's no real way to make gold for them.


    TLDR: people who make gold off of AP , plvling , crafting, claying will benefit from this ( most of the player base ) but some people still do dungeons / run their alts through dungeons for gold.


    While dungeon runs may be the only way some players make gold, the problem with allowing them to run unlimited dungeon runs as that while they think they're earning 'lots' of gold, that 'lots' becomes worth and less the more times they run it (over time).


    With limitations, due to inflation now being prevented, once more gold sinks are in place and the gold begins to deflate, that gold value will increase.

    What this means is that , where right now players are running (example) 100 dungeons to be able to earn what they want, they might now only need to run 20, because the gold value is worth that much more.


    This is what a lot of people seem to misunderstand when it comes to limitations - they actually benefit players even more than they realize, especially new ones.


    A huge majority of the games gold comes from dungeons, so those other services you mentioned will have their price scale accordingly.

    Hi everyone!


    First of all thanks to Dark and Adamont for this amazing and important investigation and for bringing this up to the community. At the end of the day we are all players who want to enjoy this game and keep it as player-friendly as possible.

    Hey, thank you for taking the time to read and reply to the thread, it really does help!


    The prices and the amount of gold on this server are really insane at the moment. The first time I saw this was when someone was buying 650 mclays for 800g each just after AP-Cards trading was forbidden. I asked myself where this gold might come from after some more people started looking for amounts like this. Maybe I am just too poor to understand but I have the feeling that the AP-Cards are not sold ingame anymore but might be used on gold seller websites. To ban those or even to try get control over them might be one solution to the huge amount of gold on the server.

    Gold seller websites are certainly an issue, and something that does need to be tackled.

    The solutions provided in this thread should also aid in helping to prevent them from generating so much gold too.

    In terms of MO limitations and FD I can absolutely see the change that was brought with the removal of those. But to be honest I don't see Mission Orders be the main problem. The main problem I see is the fact that you can pentalog in there. When I think about the DE server before the merge, we did not have MO limitations or FD but multi logging was strictly forbidden. Leeching PT was the start for many players: we had fun talking in the party, made friends, had our known runners who even helped with advice outside of PT. This is how I myself was able to improve and learn so I could run dungeons in a party and help others.

    I know things change and I can fully understand that MO limitations are needed on this server. But I think FD is not because especially newbies, not perfect equiped players or classes with lower movement speed would be in disadvantage. It can be very uncomfortable to be the one everyone is waiting for to get out and it might be frustrating too.

    In general I don't see why multi-logging is allowed in dungeons. The announce many of us may have seen ingame says, that multi-logging in any instance that requires player attendance is strictly forbidden. When we want to be precise one may say that MO's need players attendance too since it is a group mission.


    I agree that penta-logging is a significant issue, and it definitely inflates gold by 5x the amount for no real benefit.

    Final Destination does help put a stop to this.

    On the topic of Mission Orders limitations, you can see from the line graph provided in the first post of the thread that gold began to inflate once mission order limitations (at a set number of 5 per day) were taken off.

    While Final Destination was a large contributing factor that only made it worse - hypothetically if Final Destination was still left on to this day, gold would still be inflating, just at a slower rate.

    This is why it's important that both of these restrictions are put in place.


    One pretty good gold sink that we don't have that long are the violet magic stones available at the general store owner. These consumables are very good and cost nearly as much as other consumables in AH. Just like the price of Delicious Turkey, Beef Tip Salad, Fishpancakes or Pork Skewers falls or rises depending on mclay tables, the price of the violet stones falls depending on city fame. So what if we put the main consumables (let's say those with blue names) in an NPC store?


    The Underground Gold Shop is something I've never heard of and I was pretty surprised that something like this existed. It sounds like an amazing thing to me and an opportunity to get interesting items you would not usually have easy access to.


    That is it from me:)

    These are some really great ideas for gold sinks - I've put these and the other suggestions mentioned in this thread into a document that I've shared with the GMs.


    Consumables especially I think are a great idea, because players need a constant supply of them, due to their disappearance after use.

    I'm also posting to let everybody know that I've added subtitles to the video - hopefully those who do not use English as a first language will now be able to use the Auto-Translate option to be able to watch the video in the subtitles of their main language:


    ofRueJ6.png

    I contribute translating to another language in the hope that this reaches the PT server.

    Thank you very much!

    I have accepted your contribution, and it should be live on the video to select now - please let me know if you run into any issues.

    So to clarify: Although the gold has been shown to come from Mission Orders, as pointed in the video, you think the main reasons for gold inflation are because over time, things have become more scarce, that there is a conspiracy that every player in the game is deliberately over-charging or over-paying for items, and that the solution to this is to also inflate the supply of items using Magic Alchemy Tables?


    Did you read the thread or watch the video at all?


    Aside from items that are exclusively released on alchemy tables, could you also give the names of some items outside of alchemy tables that you think have become more rare as time has gone on - perhaps we can start there.


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I'm also posting to let everybody know that I've added subtitles to the video - hopefully those who do not use English as a first language will now be able to use the Auto-Translate option to be able to watch the video in the subtitles of their main language:


    ofRueJ6.png

    Make it a limit of 10 or 20 if we're really feeling an itch to put limits, but this game needs a dang premium underground gold shop like I've been nagging about for a decade.

    The reality is, the economy really can't survive on anything above 5.

    The only way you could make it so, is if you made the gold sinks even higher.

    This means that if the MO limit was set to '10', all of the gold sinks (NPC Prices, Auction Tax etc.) would need to be doubled to compensate - and I don't think anybody wants that.

    I've been suggesting ingame premium item shops (basic mallets, recipes to craft 100% mallets but you still need the malch pieces to finish, lower rate clovers, etc.) as potential gold sinks for about 10 years.

    I definitely think non tradeable mallets in NPC shops would go a long way in sinking gold.

    Not Trying to bring any negativity here, but i don't think MO limit and FD will affect the players with 100+ gold capped characters. Those highbies with lots of gold will still be better than any normal player. The majority who want this are people with tons of gold already. Im just ranting talking nonsense just wanted to post my thoughts. Im all for MO limit and FD though.

    While it doesn't affect the players who don't run dungeons, it does plug the flood of excess gold. To remo

    ve the gold from the players you are referring to you need to introduce or improve gold sinks . I do briefly mention this in the video, but the thread itself goes a little more in depth.

    Short Link: tiny.cc/gfgold


    Hello all,

    I'm writing this thread in an attempt to bring some sense of urgency and awareness to the state of Grand Fantasia's economy.


    As I'm sure you've all noticed, recently, the price for a lot of items in the game has drastically increased.


    Where not so long ago you may have been paying 800 gold for something like 'Magic Alchemy Clay', the price of this item has now increased to 1,400 gold.


    This thread will be looking into the reasons why.


    If you don't want to read the rest of the thread, I have included a helpful video to sum up the issue in just under 5 minutes:



    For those who are willing to read the thread and get a little more information, please continue.


    In an attempt to get to the bottom of this issue, I began to gather data so that a graph could be produced, and we'd be able to gain a much clearer picture.


    I decided to reference the gold value of $20 Aeria Point Cards when they were still allowed to be traded.

    Aeria Point cards were a prime candidate for comparison, as they have a constant supply and their value barely changes.

    I chose the $20 variation of AP Cards because they appeared to be the most popular, and therefore are the easiest to find data for.


    I scraped the old forums for trade threads using the 'Wayback Machine', an online tool that allows you to see the contents of cached websites.


    I also pulled information from the #trade_sanctum section of the Grand Fantasia Discord.

    I managed to find information as far back as the end of 2011.


    I plotted this all down into a line graph, and interpolated it with the help of the player Adamont.


    Interpolation means that where there are gaps of data in the dates on the graph, the increase and decrease of gold has been estimated in relation to how much it changed in the next data point.

    This helps give a much more reliable overview on how gold has changed throughout the years.


    Here is the graph:


    40ui0LQ.png

    Google Sheets of the graph: https://docs.google.com/spread…7W6XuGZI/edit?usp=sharing


    The sources for all of the information can be found here:

    https://0bin.net/paste/2FjsLSw…kU9b4FKCL-dFiUrxfs70CfzU5


    From the years 2011 to some time in 2015, the value of gold remains mostly stable.

    However, as you can see, there are two particular points on the graph where gold begins to inflate and its value decreases.

    The first of these points is around the 8th of March 2015.


    At this point into my research, I had downloaded the entirety of the Grand Fantasia news post archive, so I could search for information.


    Looking at news around this date, I determined that it was at this time that the Mission Order Limitation was removed from the game.

    You can find this news post here:


    http://grandfantasia.aeriagame…server-merges-patch-notes


    The second point of inflation is around the 9th of November 2016.

    In my many searches into the news archive, I could not find any mention of Final Destination being removed at all - so I decided to take a look at the old forum posts around this time using the wayback machine.


    I found this page of General Discussion for the 2nd of December 2016:


    https://web.archive.org/web/20…forums/en/index.php?f=948


    On this page I found two recently published (At the time) forum threads talking about the removal of Final Destination.

    QMq9XV4.png

    CBp2zKg.png


    The last post in the first thread is on the 22nd of November 2016, while the last post on the second thread is on the 27th.

    What this suggests is that Final Destination was removed sometime close to, but before the 22nd of November 2016.


    So I dig back into my news posts and look for the closest patch around that time.

    Bingo:

    https://grandfantasia.aeriagam…tum-patch-notes-11-9-2016


    The 9th of November 2016.


    Lining up perfectly with the gold inflation shown on the graph.



    Okay so at this point it should be fairly clear what the cause of this inflation is, the next question is 'why?'


    So to understand that we're going to need to talk about Gold Generation.

    Gold Generation is the process of bringing gold into the game from nowhere.

    This does not include gold that is traded among the players, as this gold has already been generated.


    In Grand Fantasia there are three primary ways to generate gold:


    • Quests
    • Killing Monsters
    • Selling Items.


    So of course I did the only thing I could...

    I took apart the client, and made a Google Sheets doc showing the payout of every single REP (Repeatable) quest in the game, as well as the price of selling every item in the game to an NPC.

    You can find this sheet here:


    https://docs.google.com/spread…h51TvloBxkQy4k/edit#gid=0


    Mission Orders have been highlighted in green.


    What I discovered, was that Mission Order quests pay out roughly 94% more than any other quest at their respective level.

    They also pay out more than any normal Level 100 REP quest at level 50.

    The highest paying Mission Order is 250 gold per run, while one of the most commongly run Mission Orders (Phoenix Tower at level 70) pays out 135 gold.


    If you're familiar with the game, looking at the Sell Prices tab, you can see that the sell price of any item that is above 1 gold is not very easy to farm - making this source of generation unreliable.


    I was not able to find data on the pay out of monsters in the game, however if you compare a regular Level 100 repeatable quest such as 'L98. Take out the Traitors (REP)', this quest pays out 15 gold and 50 silver.


    The requirements for this quest are as follows:



    Hunt 35 x Lv. 98 Baptized Investigation Member

    Hunt 35 x Lv. 98 Brainwashed Investigation Member


    Source: https://grandfantasia.info/mis…e-out-the-Traitors-(REP)/


    Essentially to kill 70 monsters.


    So to make sure I had a good comparison, I decided to test how much a mob from the end game dungeon 'Distorted Dimension' pays out, which I have recorded here:



    As you can see from the video , 1 standard monster drops 16 silver and 81 copper.


    Even if I were to kill 70 of these monsters, I would still only be given 11 Gold 58 Silver 70 Copper, which not close to the 15 gold and 50 silver that the REP Quest gives.


    This shows us that quests are the best form of gold generation overall.

    Ontop of this as mentioned previously, Mission Orders pay out roughly 94% more than an average quest at the same level.

    So it is fairly clear where all this gold is coming from.


    So why is all this gold causing the graph to rise?


    Well, that is because Grand Fantasia's gold sinks are not sufficient enough to keep up with this huge supply of new gold.


    A gold sink is the opposite of generating gold.

    Gold sinks take gold out of the game entirely and remove it from the server.


    Some examples of gold sinks are:


    • Buying from an NPC
    • Teleporting to a map
    • Auction House sales tax when selling an item
    • The cost of fortifying equipment


    All of these methods remove gold from the game.

    However, as any experienced player can tell you - the gold these sinks remove are not in any way comparable to the gold that is given to players for completing a Mission Order quest.


    Teleporting to one of the highest level maps in the game 'Alternate Kaslow Plains' costs only 33 gold

    hrZ2I4Z.png


    One of the most expensive items available from an NPC is the 'Extreme Specialized Reset Stone I'


    GibTr7j.png

    https://grandfantasia.info/ite…ialization-Reset-Stone-I/


    This item resets an extreme specialization skill that is below level 91.


    How often do you reset your extreme specialization skills?

    Probably not very often, but let's make a comparison anyway:


    That is 112 Mission Orders at Level 70 in Phoenix Tower.


    The sales tax for selling an item in the auction house at maximum gold (99,999) is 4999 gold, 95 silver and 24 copper.


    For comparison, this works out at 37.03 Phoenix Tower Mission Order runs.


    Now these may seem like a fair amount of Mission Order runs on an individual level, but on a global scale when you add up all of the times Mission Orders are being completed on the server, it is not very much at all, and this is comparing it to a level 70 Mission order.


    Gold Sinks are the only way gold is removed from the game, and the only way to keep the amount of gold coming in at a similar level to the gold going out - keeping the value of gold and the price of items at a balanced level.


    These are the best gold sinks in Grand Fantasia, and they are not capable of keeping up with the amount of gold that is being generated since the removal of Mission Order Limits and Final Destination.


    Why is lack of Final Destination a problem?


    The removal of Final Destination as a requirement meant that players no longer had to enter the last boss room of a dungeon to complete the quest.

    Some players took this opportunity sit at the entrance of a dungeon while another player farmed the dungeon on their behalf.


    Many take this a step further, by creating up to 5 alternative characters

    and complete the dungeon for all 5 of them, while only putting in the work required for one.


    You can see a video of this here:



    This meant that not only could players now generate an unlimited of gold at a rate 94% higher than any other method in the game, but they could also generate it 5 times in one go.


    The game does not remove gold at anywhere near this speed, so gold has filled the server, and the prices of every day items are continuing to increase.


    This game needs Mission Order Limitations and Final Destination to even begin on its path to economic recovery.


    In addition, further gold sinks need to be added or improved upon in an attempt to drain the excess gold that has been added to the server during this 3 year period.


    For some time now, I've been presenting my findings to the CMs and other Grand Fantasia staff.


    However, it's quickly become apparent that it's very unlikely that anything is going to be done about it.


    It is of my understanding that the primary reason for this is that it may upset some of the playerbase as not everybody understand the reasons why; so I am turning to you, the players, in hopes that you will show them that they are wrong, and you DO want the economy fixed.


    The economy is the most important part of any MMO.

    • It is the reason players farm items.
    • It is the reason players trade items with one another.
    • It is the reason players are rewarded for their hard work.


    Without these problems being fixed,


    • Players will need to work harder (run more dungeon runs) for the same value reward, as the pay out from dungeons does not change with the value of gold.
    • You may take an extended break from the game and find that your gold is worth a lot less than before you left.
    • Item will continue to increase in price.


    It is important to note that while Mission Orders could potentially capped off at any level, the more times you allow people to run them, the higher you need to make the gold sinks take away even more money, costing players even more gold.


    If this continues, it's highly likely that players will eventually leave and the game will slowly die out.


    This has actually happened briefly before, around the period of 2011-2012.

    I did some investigating and discovered that on August 23rd 2011, the MO cap was set to 20.


    https://grandfantasia.aeriagam…news/32307/expansion-pack


    You can see this on the graph, with a small spike around this time.

    The server suffered from severe inflation at that time in comparison to what it was used to before.

    this resulted in many frustrated threads like these:


    https://web.archive.org/web/20…n/viewtopic.php?t=1458567

    https://web.archive.org/web/20…n/viewtopic.php?t=1417337

    https://web.archive.org/web/20…forums/en/index.php?f=948

    ZFC6Qwu.png


    So, following this, in a patch on February 8th 2012, the MO cap was set back to 5

    Final Destination was then implemented on September 23rd 2013 because gold was becoming a problem again (according to a news post at that time, which I believe was by GM Tora)

    You can see this here:

    https://grandfantasia.aeriagam…23-2013-auction-house-fix


    This promptly fixed the issue altogether, as the graph will show you.

    In comparison to the inflation we face now, this was a minor influx of gold - and this caused an outcry.


    So in a sense, I'm trying to cause that same outcry now in a hope to see some change, but this time with a little more data to reference.


    If any positive can be made to this game while I am a GS, I hope that it can be this one.


    Please discuss below.

    If you want your voice to be heard, say something.


    Pray for Grand Fantasia

    1 Like = 1 Prayer ???

    Squishy Is too helpful.


    Thank you, keep it up!


    Posting my own data from a new character:


    Level 1:

    Siwa Island

    Longhorn Deer

    300 exp


    Level 2:

    Siwa Island

    Longhorn Deer

    300 exp


    Level 3:

    Siwa Island

    Longhorn Deer

    300 exp


    Level 4:

    Siwa Island

    Longhorn Deer

    300 exp


    Level 5:

    FREE


    Level 6:

    Siwa Island

    Dragon

    369 exp


    Level 7:

    Siwa Island

    Dragon

    369 exp


    Level 8:

    Ironwheel Beach

    Thorny Worm

    507 exp


    Level 9:

    Moonlight Forest

    Forest Sunbird

    729 exp


    Level 10:

    Moonlight Forest

    Mystic Wolf

    882 exp


    Level 11:

    Moonlight Forest

    Goblin Striker

    1047 exp



    Level 12:

    Moonlight Forest

    Goblin Striker

    1047 exp


    Level 13:

    Moonlight Forest

    Goblin Striker

    1215 exp


    Level 14:

    Moonlight Forest

    Goblin Striker

    1215 exp


    Level 15:

    FREE


    Haven't included screenshots as I've self-verified them.

    I won't chime in on the other points, as unfortunately I lack the time.

    However there is one particular point I do wish to address:


    The idea that candies were introduced to help balance some classes has been a concept that had been introduced a few times in this thread.


    While this may be an effect that has occured on some classes due to their introduction, do you really think that was the intended effect?


    It would seem to be rather odd that an obscure consumable item introduced only with a Halloween event (Mclay tables aside, as those are Aeria's doing, not X-Legends) was meant to be a commonly used item that was introduced primarily for the purpose of helping aid particular classes in PvP.


    If it were not for the tables that Aeria introduced with them on it, this would be impossible, as supply would quickly dry up after the Halloween event ended.


    Would it not be better to address these animation issues directly, instead of relying on such an item to fix them?


    As you have said above Roryn, it's not the same for everyone.

    Hi all,


    I'm looking to run an experiment of sorts, to gather data on reliable experienced gained at each level.


    Why?


    I suspect that is harder to level at 86 than it is to level at 94+

    I believe this to be poor design, and I think difficulty should increase with level, not fluctuate in this way.


    Note: I think it is too difficult to level at 86, so I'm advocating for a more favourable curve if my theory is correct.


    What do you need me for?


    I am looking to gather data on the exp on reliable exp rates at each level from 1-100


    In other words, I would like you to provide me with the exp you recieve for killing each mob in the best grinding spot at your level (not including the killing of bosses)


    Rules:


    - No exp boosting buffs may be equipped

    - No charms or gems must be equipped.

    - Ideally, do not be rebirthed (although I will take the information anyway)

    - Please note if you have a Strive and Thrive buff active, and how much of a bonus you are recieving.



    Please post below in the following template:


    Level: [Lv.X]

    Map: [Map Name]

    Experience:

    [Monster Name] [Exp Recieved]

    [Monster Name] [Exp Recieved]

    [Monster Name] [Exp Recieved]

    Screenshot: [A screenshot showing your 'Others' chat and the exp gained]


    Many thanks to all those who take the time to help.

    I am concerned about some aspects of this merge. Siwa was advertised as an international server, thus, players from PT, ES, and FR servers all were playing too.

    https://grandfantasia-siwa.aer…ra-of-grand-fantasia-siwa


    Sure, but was also stated that English was a requirement to be able to play, and would be the standard language of the server:


    Quote

    As for the language: English only! And there's a very good reason for that!


    We would like to extend this invitation to ALL of our international community: join the new server, compete and share the fun! Siwa will only be accessible in the game's English client, so anyone wishing to join the server will have to download it to play.


    The English language is a must to be able to reach as many players as possible and to allow all our communities to join in and have amazing competitions among each other!

    One question.

    How does Sanctum benefit from the Merge?

    • More players
    • A slightly higher amount of commodities (this can go both ways)
    • Mclay tables are now exclusively designed for Sanctum again.


    To name a few.

    I fixed the Sun Talents and wrote them like the others, although I think we'll need to do something similar to how the ancient talents is.

    Anyway, besides that, I think we need to work on a template for classes. Classes are the most important thing on Grand Fantasia and it's sad to see that only few of them have pages and very few of these few are written well.

    I'm currently trying to work on it, but maybe someone has already a template prepare or in mind?

    Let me know.

    Thanks for the hard work Kernul8!

    By any chance do you use the Grand Fantasia Discord?

    Opera


    Windows


    • Open the Red O (xHDU0HH.png) and then click Settings. Alternatively you can press Alt and P together.

    2CAEfAg.png


    • Open the Privacy & Security tab. Now click Clear browsing data...

    olLrBhr.png


    • In the drop-down box select the beginning of time. Then check only Cookies and other site dataandCached images and files.
    • Now click Clear browsing data.

    PP5Sp77.png


    • Close Opera (Feel free to open it again should you wish to use it)



    OSX



    • Click on Tools > Delete Private Data...

    isD6ssd.png


    • Check Delete temporary cookies and Delete all cookies, then click on Delete.

    c7C0vWj.png


    • Close Opera (Feel free to open it again should you wish to use it)

    Safari

    Windows

    • Click the Tools icon (mbdONVQ.png) > Reset Safari...


    wQFZmXc.png

    • Check Empty the cache and Remove all cookies, then click on Reset.

    SQdxH9k.png


    • Close Safari (Feel free to open it again should you wish to use it)

    OSX


    • Click Safari in the upper left hand side of your screen. In the menu that appears, click Preferences.

    1vfbG8A.jpg


    • In the window that appears, click the Privacy tab. Click the button Remove All Website Data...

    PMTKkt2.png

    • Click Remove Now in the pop up window that appears.

    qifDvQd.png


    • Close Safari (Feel free to open it again should you wish to use it)

    Microsoft Edge


    • Select the Ellipsis icon (09OyzQR.png) and select Settings

    Aes673l.jpg



    • In the Settings window, scroll down and select Choose what to clear.

    vO7qfy8.png


    • This will bring up the Clear Browsing Data menu.
    • Make sure Cookies and saved website data Cached data and files and Tabs that I've set aside or recently closed are checked and all other options are unchecked.

    • Click the Clear button.

    6b3hPt9.png


    • Close Microsoft Edge (Feel free to open it again should you wish to use it)

    Firefox


    • Click the Settings icon (2F6o5QJ.png) and select Options

    xXq3CHe.png


    • Select Privacy & Security > clear your recent history

    bPTDJ2z.png


    • Make sure Cookies Cache and Offline Web Site Data are checked, and everything else is unchecked.
    • Make sure Everything is selected in the Time range to clear drop down box.
    • Select Clear Now

    0NS7yOL.png


    • Close FireFox (Feel free to open it again should you wish to use it)

    Google Chrome


    • Click the Settings icon (ixspR10.png) > More tools > Clear browsing data...
    • In older versions of Chrome, the icons might be three horizontal lines 8udwM8u.png or a wrench ioGBFWU.png.
    • Note: You can also access this menu by holding Ctrl + Shift + Delete.

    8vdOsCe.png


    • Make sure to check Cookies and other site data and Cached images and files
    • Select All time in the Time range drop down box and click on the CLEAR DATA button.

    8ZC496k.png



    • Close Google Chrome (Feel free to open it again should you wish to use it)

    Internet Explorer

    • Click the Toolsicon ( 6KjDfTl.png ) > Safety > Delete browsing history...

    • Note: You can also access this menu by holding Ctrl + Shift + Delete.

    ktUkPWy.png


    • Make sure to uncheck Preserve Favorites website data and check both Temporary Internet Files and Cookies then click Delete.

    63iMClp.png


    • You will get a confirmation at the bottom of the window once it has successfully cleared your cache and cookies.

    m7CJnPa.png


    • Close Internet Explorer (Feel free to open it again should you wish to use it)


    Further Troubleshooting

    The above procedure for clearing cache and cookies should work for the majority of websites, but certain website and applications might require a more thorough procedure.


    If you are still having issues, try the steps below.

    • Note: The F12 developer tools in Internet Explorer 11 do not include a cache menu. This process will only work for Internet Explorer 10 or lower.
    • Close out of Internet Options. Click on Tools and select Developer Tools.

    hbdYPAw.png


    • In the Developer Tools window, click on Cache and select Clear Browser Cache...

    OMfhxq4.png


    • Click Yes to confirm the clearing of the browser cache.

    XQar0qe.png


    • Close Internet Explorer (Feel free to open it again should you wish to use it)